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Question about animals

gregcgregc
edited May 2009 in Buddhism Basics
I have always been against harming a living thing no matter what it is. I have a question about a rather sticky situation. There is a field mouse (so small it couldn't harm anything) eating my dogs food, and I heard two people mention they saw it. I never saw the mouse, but went along with the pressure from those two individuals to buy a mouse trap. When I want to the store, I was taken back by the mouse traps that said "kill" in bright red letters on the box. Everything from snapping the mouse's neck, to poisoning the mouse and trapping the mouse so it dehydrates and starves to death. The latter is very inhumane and cruel because I have had to listen to a baby mouse cry for it's mother all night while it was stuck in a poisoned trap (I couldn't bear it). So I ended up buying a "live catch" trap. The mouse walks in and gets trapped in a box, where you can take it back outside and release it, no poison, no harm to the mouse. BUT! If the mouse is caught overnight and dies in the box before I can let it out in the morning, will my hands be dirty (i.e. get bad karma) for it? I really can't think of a more humane way of catching it since I have not once actually seen the mouse myself, nor have I seen any evidence of one.

Comments

  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited April 2006
    I don't think a mouse will starve overnight.

    Put some food in there if you want to make sure he gets a good meal.

    I don't think there is "bad" karma for unintentional acts. If that was the case - you're screwed. You can't do anything without harming something in your life.

    -bf
  • YogaMamaYogaMama
    edited April 2006
    I agree with bf...the little mouse won't starve overnight. And no, there is not bad karma for unintentional acts. Otherwise, we would all be in trouble. There is no way to go through life without harming one single thing. It's all in your intentions.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited April 2006
    I've caught a few mice in mouse cubes before, and they don't die that quickly. Especially if you leave a decent amount of food in them. So don't worry about it. And like bf said, karma is intentional action. The worst repurcussion you'll have to worry about is the potentiality of sadness at the loss of life. Just do your best.

    take care

    _/\_
    metta
  • gregcgregc
    edited April 2006
    Cool... I was just concerned about the air the mouse would get (it's my first time using a live catch trap) and I wasn't sure if any of the blame would roll down onto me for putting him in that situation in the first place. Thanks!
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited April 2006
    You're extra fine, Greg, because not only is your first intention to spare the mouse's life but you are even making doubly sure that your plan is a good one, which is wise. So you're practicing compassion and wisdom in this situation. It's all good! LOL!

    Brigid
  • MartinofNorwichMartinofNorwich
    edited April 2006
    The mouse won't die overnight, Greg. We catch at least one a night in our kitchen, and put them out in the morning. Even when I once forgot and went off to work, the mouse was ok in the evening. My only worry is that it's actually the same mouse, coming back in for the cheese in the trap every time.

    Martin.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 2006
    Mice have a roaming territory of over two miles.... Chances certainly are the same mouse is coming back for the food hit....!

    Take it for a little ol' car ride......! It will love you for it, and find new stuff to do!
  • MrsKarmadilloMrsKarmadillo
    edited April 2006
    federica wrote:
    Take it for a little ol' car ride......! It will love you for it, and find new stuff to do!

    In Norwich..??!! :o:lol:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 2006
    Norwich might be very interesting for a mouse....!
  • WindwalkerWindwalker
    edited April 2006
    A friend of mine once caught a mouse in a trap he had made out of lego. Anyway, I agree with the above. You have kindness and good intention so don't worry about it. It is possible to take the 'no harm to living things' to extremes and then you stop walking down the street in case you step on an ant.
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited April 2006
    Lego? LMAO!!

    Brigid
  • wezz_975wezz_975
    edited April 2006
    lego, must have been creative.


    it's nice to see people helping animals of all types.

    my family seems to enjoy killing defensless mice, which makes me feel bad, because there's nothing I can do about it, if I went up and told them that they should find other alternatives to catch mice in the house they would be like "It's just a mouse boy whats wrong with you?!?!" yeah, there not the most understanding when it comes to let insects and animals live.

    I wish more people (including my parents) was compassionate enough to think of the little guy.
  • MartinofNorwichMartinofNorwich
    edited April 2006
    MrsKarmadillo wrote:
    In Norwich..??!! :o:lol:

    I must respectfully inform you that Norwich is a very cool and interesting place. For example, we have the UK's only Museum of Mustard.

    Martin.
  • MrsKarmadilloMrsKarmadillo
    edited April 2006
    Enough said :bowdown: :rockon: :ukflag:

    I must add - I'm from Huddersfield........ our only claim to fame is ......... Last of the Summer Wine :lol:

    Sas :buck:
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited April 2006
    Martin of Norwich wrote:
    I must respectfully inform you that Norwich is a very cool and interesting place. For example, we have the UK's only Museum of Mustard.

    Martin.

    LOL!!
  • gregcgregc
    edited April 2006
    MrsKarmadillo wrote:
    Enough said :bowdown: :rockon: :ukflag:

    I must add - I'm from Huddersfield........ our only claim to fame is ......... Last of the Summer Wine :lol:

    Sas :buck:

    Who's got Black Books then? :bigclap:
  • MrsKarmadilloMrsKarmadillo
    edited April 2006
    gregc wrote:
    Who's got Black Books then? :bigclap:

    huh? Sorry I don't get it? I can be a little......... slow! :crazy: :doh:

    Sas :buck:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 2006
    (Glad i'm not the only one.....!) :grin:
  • RattyRatty
    edited April 2006
    We caught a mouse red-pawed in our dog's food last spring (it fell into the bag and couldn't get out!), so we took it outside and let it go. I bought a humane trap after that, but in a whole year I've never caught anybody with it. I haven't seen evidence of any mice either, so I guess they just avoid my apartment now.

    Anyway, I agree with everyone else who said that a) the mouse will probably be okay for awhile in the humane trap, and b) even if it died, you had good intentions and didn't mean to inflict any harm.
  • gregcgregc
    edited April 2006
    Welcome ratty! I've heard that one of the individuals cleaned up that rat "leftovers" every morning when they woke up. I never witnessed any cleanup, so the only semi-reliable account of the mouse I've heard was a person who said they saw a shadow moving twice and they say it was a mouse, but can't confirm size nor colour. Quite a tricky business really.
  • gregcgregc
    edited April 2006
    Update on the whole issue... I just felt like posting this because of how it turned out. Today we caught 2 baby mice, 1 jumped out and ran off into the distance, the second one had struggled with it's breathing, but we managed to get that one out of the box to where he got sufficient air. I'm glad we got to them, they were so small and even the person who wanted to kill them said she would have felt terrible had she killed them.
  • MrsKarmadilloMrsKarmadillo
    edited May 2006
    ........seeing as you had so much advice about the mouse problem........

    There's a rather large wasp building a nest in our shed! How can we encourage it to relocate?

    Sas :buck:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2006
    You can't... I'm afraid they don't take kindly to being moved on, lock stock and barrel...They are very territorial... I'm afraid you'e going to have to remove the nest, next time it is absent, and just hope it goes elsewhere....

    I used to keep bees, and the amount of times I'd get people banging on my door, complaining my bees had swarmed and were building a nest in their shed/tree/loft/dining room/boudoir/knickers, (I knew they hadn't - I know what happens when bees swarm, and mine, due to good hive husbandry, never did, in an uncontrolled way....)

    So I'd go round there and patiently explain that it wasn't bees, it was wasps....and walk off...

    "So now what am I supposed to do - ?!?" came their protesting wail, following me down their path....

    "Ring the council pest control department!" I'd reply...

    "Yeh, but that'll cost me!!"

    "Sorry mate - not my problem!"

    They didn't usually take very kindly to that bit....;
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited May 2006
    I looked it up on Google and found the same response as Fede's. In fact here's a link for you, Sas, that I happened upon: Wasps

    I don't know how my Google got set to "Google U.K." but it was a good thing in this case. It's from the Lewes District Council and lists a charge of 29 pounds for one nest, so I imagine the charge would be similar where you are.

    A lot of people don't know that they're allergic to wasp stings so IMHO I wouldn't go anywhere near them and I'd make sure the children were elsewhere when the Council comes. Some wasps can be very, very hostile so take very good care and leave the nest alone, even if you're wearing protective clothing. It's just too dangerous.

    Brigid
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited May 2006
    I forgot to mention that they will be killed because there is no safe way to remove them and relocate them, as Fede said. But as far as the Buddhist precept goes, this is a special case. If anyone in your family has an alergy to the wasp venom and gets stung it could prove fatal. Even if there is no allergy, if one is swarmed and stung repeatedly the effects can also be fatal. Killing the wasps and destroying the hive is by far the lesser of the two evils, unfortunately.

    Brigid
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2006
    It reminds me of the Monastery that became infested with cockroaches (I'm sure I have mentioned this elsewhere, so i'll keep it brief!) Whilst the Monks were initially able to tolerate their 'little Brothers' for a while, the gradual progressive increase became a health-hazard and put pilgrims, visitors and travellers off the place. They eventually (under approval of the Mother Monastery in Nepal) had to call in pest Control.
    Some things become necessary.
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    edited May 2009
    I get the wasps to go somewhere else by directing a strong spray of water from my gardenhose at their beginning mud nest. The spray disintegrates their nest. They may start to rebuild once or twice, but I hose it again ... and they do give up. I don't know where they go ... probably someplace where they will get killed with bug spray. Sigh.
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