questions about the abdomen when meditating

yangster58

When focusing on the abdomen/stomach, what exactly are we suppose to notice? are we suppose to visualize the stomach rising and falling, or the sensation of the stomach as you inhale and exhale? or feel it expanding and contracting? When i'm meditating, i get so caught up in thinking whether im noticing the right thing or not, that i end up thinking about it the whole time.. Is there a right way to do it?

weighted

I had a teacher in the past say that you should focus wherever you feel the breath the most. So if you feel the breath mostly in the navel or lower stomach, then focus there; if you feel it more in the lung area, then focus there. Basically, wherever you feel the breath entering and exiting your body, and this could differ depending on if you're sitting, walking, lying down, etc.

weighted

P.S. Don't focus on noticing in your body. Focus on the breath alone. That's all.

WallyB

if following the (Mahasi) focusing on the abdomen/stomach technique, the practitioner is supposed to see/feel (not visualize) the abdomen rising and falling. thus take some time to slow the mind down and gently place your hand for a while on the abdomen so the mind can familiarise itself with the natural rhythm of the rising & falling

best wishes

SpinyNorman2

if following the (Mahasi) focusing on the abdomen/stomach technique, the practitioner is supposed to see/feel (not visualize) the abdomen rising and falling. thus take some time to slow the mind down and gently place your hand for a while on the abdomen so the mind can familiarise itself with the natural rhythm of the rising & falling

best wishes

Yes, it's important to feel what's happening rather than thinking about it.
It also depends what kind of meditation you're doing. For example anapanasati ( mindfulness of breathing ) is based on the wind element, so attention is normally focussed on the nostrils where the breath enters and leaves the body.

spiny

etherea

I generally just focus on my breathing, especially the exhalation, but if I'm sitting meditating I Iike being aware of my abdomen expanding and contracting. I think the secret is not to actively think about what's happening but just be aware of it.

BonsaiDoug

I think the secret is not to actively think about what's happening but just be aware of it.

I agree. I found this quote to be helpful. For me anyway.

This point is essential: mindfulness tethers the mind to the present. Initially this takes effort, but this effort is applied with a very light touch. It’s like brushing your teeth: you brush, you get distracted, and you just naturally come back. No big deal. By gently returning to the present, our mind calms down, and everything seems workable.
~ Pema Chodron

Sabre

I had a teacher in the past say that you should focus wherever you feel the breath the most. So if you feel the breath mostly in the navel or lower stomach, then focus there; if you feel it more in the lung area, then focus there. Basically, wherever you feel the breath entering and exiting your body, and this could differ depending on if you're sitting, walking, lying down, etc.

In the sutta on mindful breathing, there is no reference to a specific body part, so I would agree with your teacher. Also from experience I know that it does not matter a lot where you place attention.

So yangster, perhaps just try another place of feeling the breath.

WallyB

In the sutta on mindful breathing, there is no reference to a specific body part, so I would agree with your teacher.

ultimately, there is no sutta on 'mindful breathing'. there is only a sutta on mindfulness in association with awareness of breathing as the sign of right mindfulness. the sutta only instructs 'bringing mindfulness to the fore'. mindfulness means maintaining the mind in a state free from craving & grasping; maintaining the mind in a state of 'right view' (samma ditthi). the mindfulness instruction is found in the sutta (117) before that sutta (118)

all techniques are like 'training wheels'

Sabre

Yes, I was referring to the anapanasati sutta.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

SpinyNorman2

Yes, I was referring to the anapanasati sutta.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

It's also helpful to read the commentaries.

Spiny

WallyB

Yes, I was referring to the anapanasati sutta.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

i know. despite the very dodgy translation, the sutta is not about 'mindful breathing'

i am curious if you have ever been exposed to the teachings of Ajahn Brahmvaso? does he instruct 'mindful breathing' as technique or 'letting go'? :scratch:

WallyB

It's also helpful to read the commentaries.

imo, the commentaries are close to useless. just more techniques there, which make progress very limited. such techniques lead to the development of schools such as Zen, which simplified the instruction, because the commentators such as Buddhaghosa had no actual experience

all 'techniques', such as counting, abdomen watching, nostril watching, etc, have the purpose of bringing the mind under control. if the mind is not under control but, instead, with discursive thinking, the breath with be coarse & agitated because a coarse mind makes coarse breathing

when the mind can continually watch the breathing at abdomen or nostrils, the breathing will calm & refine. but to a degree that the mind practising "technique" loses track of it because of the disparity between the breath's refinement and the mind's effort to watch. the mind that makes an effort to watch will become foggy & sunken because it cannot discern the breathing any more

when the meditation reaches this level, where the mind is under control & can remain focused, but the breathing becomes too refined, the 'technique' must be dropped

all techniques are like 'training wheels'. the commentaries of Buddhaghosa are the most juvenile of training wheels. jhana cannot be reached by following the commentaries, which is why meditation masters, such as Ajahn Brahmavaso, do not instruct them

: )

WallyB

Is there a right way to do it?

yes. ignore the debate on this thread. slow your mind down. feel your abdomen with your hand. tune into the rhythm of rising & falling. follow the technique instructed. discover for yourself, the advantages & limitations of the technique. explore, experiment, investigate. this is the dhamma way

Sabre

Yes, I was referring to the anapanasati sutta.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

i know. despite the very dodgy translation, the sutta is not about 'mindful breathing'

i am curious if you have ever been exposed to the teachings of Ajahn Brahmvaso? does he instruct 'mindful breathing' as technique or 'letting go'? :scratch:

It's just a name I gave it to refer to that sutta; You're attacking a straw man. The point was, should the focus be on the abdomen or not? However we call it, the sutta says nothing about a particular location, so would support the post I quoted.

Let's not create any arguments where there are none.

WallyB

...should the focus be on the abdomen?

yes, because the OP is trying to practise this :mullet:

but if folks start to assert: "the suttas teach this" then we get hundreds of different viewpoints about the suttas. the facts are buddha said it is very rare that an individual arises in the world that comprehends the suttas

Rare in the world is the appearance of one who teaches the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathāgata.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208.pdf

seeker242

When focusing on the abdomen/stomach, what exactly are we suppose to notice? are we suppose to visualize the stomach rising and falling, or the sensation of the stomach as you inhale and exhale? or feel it expanding and contracting? When i'm meditating, i get so caught up in thinking whether im noticing the right thing or not, that i end up thinking about it the whole time.. Is there a right way to do it?

Precisely where you put your attention is not all that important IMO. The important part is that you are putting it somewhere and keeping it there or at least trying to keep it there. Zen teachers generally recommend that it be placed at your hara, which is just below the naval.

Shunryu Suzuki, in his classic Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, says, "If you put your left hand on top of your right, middle joints of your middle fingers together, and touch your thumbs lightly together (as if you held a piece of paper between them), your hands will make a beautiful oval. You should keep this universal mudra with great care, as if you were holding something very precious in your hand. Your hands should be held against your body, with your thumbs at about the height of your navel. Hold your arms freely and easily, and slightly away from your body, as if you held an egg under each arm without breaking it." This hand position will assist you in focussing on your hara.

Now release any remaining muscle tension and concentrate on your breathing. Let your breathing become very natural. It will find its own pace and you may notice that it slows and deepens. Breath in and out through your nose. Allow the inbreath to sink into your abdomen. Imagine that the breath is moving like a wave between your lungs and your hara, that point in the centre of your abdomen about eight centimetres below and behind your navel. Visualise your breath falling there. ‘

Allow the out breath to leave your body gently and loop out in front of your nose. On the in breath pick up that loop again and let it fall down to your hara.

Bring your attention fully to that energy centre, that balance point we are referring to as hara. Allow all of you attention to focus at that point. It may be helpful to imagine a point of red light in the dark of your abdomen. Whatever image you choose, allow it to aid you in focussing, and then when it has lost its usefulness, let it go.

Continue to return your awareness to your hara whenever it drifts away. Focus all of your attention there. Be in that place. Own that part of your body. Note any sensations you have there and let them go. Releasing your mental constrictions there will allow the energy of the hara to move up your spine and throughout your body. (raising the shen) You may feel energized, yet at the same time you may feel the peace of being in balance.

Experience whatever comes without grasping. Focus your attention without desire for any particular result. Check your posture and bring it back to balance when you feel it slip. Allow the emptiness of non-doing to bring you peace.

That's a lot of "instruction" but it not meant to be very technical. It supposed to be very simple as it's a very simple act. The hand mudra placed over your hara helps bring attention there. There isn't a very precise way of bringing your attention there, you just bring the general attention of your mind to that general area of your body.