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Buddhist Deities

EjotyEjoty
edited May 2006 in Buddhism Basics
who decides who becomes a diety and are they in effect similar to saints in the catholic church?

Comments

  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited May 2006
    It doesn't really work that way, Ejoty, at least not in Vajrayana. Deities are not to be thought of as something "out there" separate from yourself. Rather they are aspects of enlightened mind. Avalokiteshvara (AKA Chenrezig or Kwan Yin), for example, symbolizes compassionate activity. Manjushri represents learning. And so forth. It's not like somebody appointed them as deities! They're more like Jung's archetypes.

    Palzang
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited May 2006
    Palzang wrote:
    It doesn't really work that way, Ejoty, at least not in Vajrayana. Deities are not to be thought of as something "out there" separate from yourself. Rather they are aspects of enlightened mind. Avalokiteshvara (AKA Chenrezig or Kwan Yin), for example, symbolizes compassionate activity. Manjushri represents learning. And so forth. It's not like somebody appointed them as deities! They're more like Jung's archetypes.

    Palzang

    I like this idea quite a bit.

    The thought of deities out there and worship (which probably really takes us from seeking our own enlightenment) just hits me wrong.

    -bf
  • questZENerquestZENer Veteran
    edited May 2006
    What does it mean, then, to associate onself with a diety like, say, Yama (death)? Or do would practitioners only associate with Yamantaka (conqueror of death)?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2006
    Yama is the name given to Death...like we have "the Grim Reaper".... The Buddha always said that Yama was his Guru...that is, he kept the notion of Death (as the ultimate impermanence for a sentient being) close by him, all his life, to remind him his own transitory existence....


    ...As I understand it.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited May 2006
    First you have to differentiate between the different types of deities. The deities that one would "associate" with are called Yidams, or meditational deities. When you say "associate", what you really mean is "visualize one's self as". You visualize yourself as a particular deity, such as Yamantaka or Chenrezig, in order to identify with the particular enlightened activity that is demonstrated by that deity. The teacher assigns the student a particular yidam that the teacher feels will best help the student overcome some particular problem or obstacle. For example, someone who has trouble feeling compassion, say, might receive Chenrezig as a yidam so that he/she can eventually give rise to the Bodhicitta (ultimate compassion) through this practice.

    Then there are the protectors. These aren't really deities per se but look similar to many meditational deities, and some protectors, such as Mahakala, can also serve as yidams, so it can be a little confusing. Generally, however, protectors are powerful beings (or energies if you prefer) which have been tamed and which have sworn to protect the Dharma.

    Yama (full name Shinje Yamaradza) is sort of a special case. He is considered a protector (tamed by Manjushri in the guise of Yamantaka, literally "multitudes of Yama"). But he is also the Lord of Death and, according to the ancient mythology of both Hindus and Tibetan Buddhists, is the one who comes to collect the dead when they die. There is an interesting story of how he came to be. The story goes that a holy man was told that if he meditated in a cave for 50 years, he would attain enlightenment. So he did so for 49 years, 11 months, 29 days and 23 hours. Then two thieves burst in with a stolen bull looking for place to hide out. The thieves first cut off the bull's head, then spotting the holy man, cut his head off as well. In his fury, the holy man transforms into Yama, the Lord of Death, takes the bull's head and replaces his head with it, then slays the two thieves and drinks their blood out of their own skull caps! The moral of the story being let meditating lamas lie!

    Palzang
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited May 2006
    I should add that one only engages in this sort of practice after receiving empowerment from a qualified lama and permission to do the practice. It can be very dangerous to do such practices without proper empowerment and instruction. At the very least doing such a practice without receiving empowerment and instruction will have no result. So please take this warning seriously.

    Palzang
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2006
    Palzang wrote:
    The story goes that a holy man was told that if he meditated in a cave for 50 years, he would attain enlightenment. So he did so for 49 years, 11 months, 29 days and 23 hours. Then two thieves burst in with a stolen bull looking for place to hide out. The thieves first cut off the bull's head, then spotting the holy man, cut his head off as well. In his fury, the holy man transforms into Yama, the Lord of Death, takes the bull's head and replaces his head with it, then slays the two thieves and drinks their blood out of their own skull caps! The moral of the story being let meditating lamas lie!

    Palzang

    What a pair of spoilsports - serves them right....!

    Thank you for your subsequent 'caveat' too, Palzang... as well as all this information. Wonderfully enriching....

    I too have heard that certain meditations should only be done under guidance and instruction.... Good heads-up.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited May 2006
    Palzang wrote:
    There is an interesting story of how he came to be. The story goes that a holy man was told that if he meditated in a cave for 50 years, he would attain enlightenment. So he did so for 49 years, 11 months, 29 days and 23 hours. Then two thieves burst in with a stolen bull looking for place to hide out. The thieves first cut off the bull's head, then spotting the holy man, cut his head off as well. In his fury, the holy man transforms into Yama, the Lord of Death, takes the bull's head and replaces his head with it, then slays the two thieves and drinks their blood out of their own skull caps! The moral of the story being let meditating lamas lie!

    Palzang


    I'm much the same way if someone interrupts me 1 hour 39 minutes and 27 seconds into a good movie.

    -bf
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited May 2006
    Yeah, I'm sure we've all been Yama at one time or another!

    Palzang
  • harlanharlan
    edited May 2006
    Just an esoteric sidenote....if anyone is interested.

    When one is studying karate at an advanced level it is striking how similar the entire practice is to what I read about in Vajrayana. Moving through the mandala, 10 directions, visualization of one's teacher(s), contemplation of death and life. Very tantric.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited May 2006
    Huh, I didn't know that. But wasn't karate originally based on Buddhist principles?

    Palzang
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited May 2006
    Hmmm...

    I don't know about that... and I've studied a number of Asian martial arts.

    I don't know that any style was based upon Buddhist principals... many arts are traced back to Chinese boxing and Shaolin monks (excluding grappling styles which I believe have their roots in Japan).

    In case anyone didn't know it - Shaolin monks didn't start doing "martial art" type movements so they could start kicking ass on everyone. It was basically (if what I've read is true) because the monks where spending so much time meditating that they were becoming physically out of shape. Since body and mind much work together - a teacher created some movements to provide physical activity for them.

    How accurate this is... I have no idea.

    -bf
  • harlanharlan
    edited May 2006
    The myth of Bohdidharma teaching martial arts to Shaolin monks is, to my mind, highly suspect. If he even existed, if it even happened, perhaps it was some form of yogic practice.

    As for martial arts in general being based on on Buddhist principles: hogwash. The source of martial arts is to survive...by killing if need be. But, the Asian arts developed within a Buddhist/Daoist context...so of course there are the external references. The 'mudras' that were added for example....ritualistic flourishes. HOWEVER, if one has a tantric perspective, then a martial art is practiced with a different view...and the Buddhist/Daoist trappings become more.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited May 2006
    harlan wrote:

    As for martial arts in general being based on on Buddhist principles: hogwash. The source of martial arts is to survive...by killing if need be.


    Hmmm... I have to disagree... somewhat.

    I don't believe the source of martial arts is to survive - by killing if need be.

    I know that "use" of my martial arts had nothing to do with surviving or killing - it was actually more of an "art" to me.

    -bf
  • harlanharlan
    edited May 2006
    Since 'the source' is such a laden term...perhaps I should say..'the origin'.

    I once asked Sensei Dong T. Tran the question 'Is Goju ryu about killing?'

    His reply, and one that I adhere to:

    Dear Narda,

    Goju-ryu (or any other martial art) is never about killing. It's always about developing the individual, using the body to reach the mind. What you want to do is train the mind; that's why there is such an affinity between the martial arts and Zen Buddhism. That's what evolution is about. I hope this helps you think about what you're attempting to do and learn.

    You must think for yourself and figure out what rings true and what makes sense. The goal that you pick will determine what kind of person you are. And the goal that somebody else picks determines the kind of person that they are.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited May 2006
    Hey, Harlan...

    Do you do Goju-Ryu?

    -bf
  • harlanharlan
    edited May 2006
    Yes. Goju Ryu and Matayoshi kobudo.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited May 2006
    harlan wrote:
    Yes. Goju Ryu and Matayoshi kobudo.

    I live in a town where Teruo Chinen (supposedly one of the senior students of the person who "invented" Goju) lives and teaches.

    Although... he doesn't do Goju-Ryu anymore - had a falling out with Morio (sp?)

    -bf
  • harlanharlan
    edited May 2006
    Cool. Sorry...but I don't know a thing about Goju politics history. (I had to look that name up on the internet...;) ) Or, I should say....I try not to. It is enough for me to have a teacher who is lucky enough to still train with his teacher every week (a 6th Dan).
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