Fazun's Translation of Tsongkhapa's sNgags Rim Chen Mo?

Sile

Has anyone here come across the Chinese book Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, said to be a translation of a work by Tsongkhapa by dharma-master Fazun, Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., 1986?

I'm not absolutely sure which work by Tsongkhapa it is said to be a translation of, but I believe it may be sNgags Rim Chen Mo.

Thanks so much - it's proving very difficult to find!

caz

I think a translation is already being worked upon at the moment Ive seen it advertised as an upcoming title at wisdom books.

Sile

Thank you caznamyaw...is this a translation from the Tibetan, or from the above Chinese book, do you know?

Sile

I'm asking because this book seems to be the only source for the infamous "Tibetan tantras require 12 year old girls" reference. I stand to be corrected if contrasting information comes to light.

And, that said, I haven't seen this Chinese book and therefore can't be sure that even it contains such a reference; the person pushing the information is a member of a "Zhengjue Buddhism" organization in Taiwan, whose building bears a gigantic sign, visible from the freeway, stating "Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists."

One thing is clear, however: the specific quote referencing underage girls and tantric practice, which is currently posted in several places online including here at NewBuddhist, is attributed to this single Chinese text, and does not come from a Tibetan tantra, nor even from a Tibetan commentary on a tantra.

Sile

It's really unfortunate. In quite a few forums and blogs now, it seems people are swallowing hook, line and sinker that this accusation--Tibetans advise using 12 year old girls in tantric rituals--is actually from a tantra.

Has anyone seen a reference to 12 year old girls in Tibetan tantras, other than in this Chinese translation of a work by Tsongkhapa (which has yet to be verified)? There is extensive discussion, debate, and obvious revulsion and discouragement apparent in some of those who, not knowing the particulars, come into the discussion and assume these accusations are true. Yet from what I've found so far, these accusations are not true. This is tragic, and beyond that it's really shameful that we have, at various points, discussed this accusation as if it were proven fact.

caz

LOL 12 is most likely symbolic Tantric language is not exactly straightforward like Sutra is it ? Je Rinpoche was A celibate monk who held perfect conduct as well and considering the Gelug tradition does not do Physical Karma Mudra it speaks for itself. The Chinese Mahayanist's Dont exactly have a good view of Tantra so I wouldn't trust them to provide a decent translation, In fact Id go so far to say as anyone who is not a skilled tantric adept could not adequately translate such texts because they contain many hidden meanings as well my own teacher did a translation of the hidden meaning of the Heruka root Tantra in the first and 51st chapter which is extremely profound.

The new translation is being worked on by the Dalai lama I think so it should be an interesting read will add it to my Lamrim Chenmo collection to

Sile

Caznamyaw, some things are hard to translate, but even a beginning student could make the distinction between "12" and "20," so in the case of this "12 year old girl" phrase which has caused so much trouble, I think it really has to be investigated.

Somewhere along the line the story even became that the Kalachakra encourages men to use 12 year old girls. It's really a shame. There is no such instruction in the Kalachakra Tantra that I have ever seen.

Fazun passed away six years before the translation was published, and as I said, I haven't seen the book yet myself so I don't know whether Fazun actually wrote a part about underage girls, or whether that passage even exists at all.

There is no English translation of Fazun's translation, so we'll have to look at the Chinese original, if it can be found.

The English quote which has been passed around for approximately two years now comes from a Taiwanese netizen, and has been taken up by a German netizen; these seem to be the primary and only sources of this unfortunate passage. However, others have taken this passage and repeated it as if it did indeed come straight from a Tibetan tantra, which it did not.

I've even seen people online, reacting in horror, say that if this passage is true they have no desire to remain Buddhist. If that outcome was the goal of the writer--whether that writer was Fazun, someone at the publishing company, or a modern online political troll--sadly it would seem they have succeeded in a few tragic cases (including possibly putting at least one woman completely over the edge psychologically). If you don't want to be Buddhist of course that's totally fine, but to abandon something that's been bringing you joy, based on a politically-motivated untruth, is really sad.

Sile

But I do totally agree with you, caznamyaw, that in general these old writings can be full of layered and profound meanings. Translation is a very tricky (and rewarding) business. I'd be interested to see your teacher's work on Heruka.

Sile

Some finding aids for those interested:

The Journal of the International Association of Tibetan Studies (JIATS) mentions this edition of Fazun's sNgags Rim Chen Mo translation:

Mizong zidi guanglun. 1939. Reprint, Shanghai: Shanghai Foxue shuju, 1996.

http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/jiats/#!jiats=/02/tuttle/c3/#ixzz1syAnQx87

In Tibetan Buddhists in the Making of Modern China by Gray Tuttle, this same 1939 translation is referenced, with the Chinese title given as Mizong zidi guanglun, as above, the English as Vast Treatise on the Graduated Esoteric Path, and the original Tibetan as sNgags Rim Chen Mo.

I can find no reference so far to a 1986 edition by Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., other than in the 12-year-olds-in-tantra scandal threads. I've asked the original poster of this information on another forum if they'd be kind enough to provide a scan or photocopy of the page in question.

caz

Some finding aids for those interested:

The Journal of the International Association of Tibetan Studies (JIATS) mentions this edition of Fazun's sNgags Rim Chen Mo translation:

Mizong zidi guanglun. 1939. Reprint, Shanghai: Shanghai Foxue shuju, 1996.

http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/jiats/#!jiats=/02/tuttle/c3/#ixzz1syAnQx87

In Tibetan Buddhists in the Making of Modern China by Gray Tuttle, this same 1939 translation is referenced, with the Chinese title given as Mizong zidi guanglun, as above, the English as Vast Treatise on the Graduated Esoteric Path, and the original Tibetan as sNgags Rim Chen Mo.

I can find no reference so far to a 1986 edition by Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., other than in the 12-year-olds-in-tantra scandal threads. I've asked the original poster of this information on another forum if they'd be kind enough to provide a scan or photocopy of the page in question.

Yes it would be helpful if they provide their evidence, People often go on about the Kalachakra, I have a friend who is a Jonang monk who is more then capable of pointing out the mistaken notions people have of course its very difficult when their mind is already filled with negativity.

Sile

Fazun, imprisoned from 19661972 during the Cultural Revolution, appears to have been a greatly respected translator. From various snippets at JIATS:

The twentieth century saw a major renewal of Tibetan Buddhist practice at Riwo Tsenga with a significant multi-ethnic following. The presence of ethnic Tibetan, Mongolian, and Chinese Tibetan Buddhists at this important Buddhist pilgrimage place has made Riwo Tsenga one of the pre-eminent sites of religious and cultural exchange in China. Many monasteries on the mountain now practice the Gelukpa tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. Two ethnic Chinese who were most influential in spreading the Gelukpa tradition of Tibetan Buddhism in China had particularly strong connections with the mountain: Dharma-master Fazun and Nenghai Lama.

Dharma-master Fazun



In the spring of 1920, while warlords fought over the spoils of north China, an eighteen-year old young man from Hebei Province (in northern China) went to Wutai shan to become a Buddhist monk. Coming from a poor family he had received little education, yet this man – now known as Dharma-master Fazun (his Tibetan name was Lozang Chöpak) – was to become a figure of major importance in the field of translating Buddhist works from Tibetan into Chinese.

Fazun returned from years of study in Kham and Central Tibet to direct the Sino-Tibetan Buddhist Institute (Tib. gya bö lungrik lapdrakhang, Chi. Han Zang jiaoli yuan)10 in Sichuan. Though he wanted to return to Tibet to earn a Geshé degree, he had been advised by his Tibetan teachers that it would be better if he dedicated himself to translating Tibetan Buddhism into Chinese.

Though it is unclear what Fazun’s later relationship with the Buddhist community of Wutai shan was, the mountain is now graced with his memorial stūpa.



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According to Françoise Wang-Toutain (“Quand les maîtres chinois s’éveillent au bouddhisme tibétain,” Bulletin de l’École française d’Extrême-Orient 87.2, 2000: 707-727, here 725), when Qing Buddhist masters like Dayong, Fazun, Nenghai and their friends began to show interest in Tibetan Buddhism (in particular dGe lugs pa), they regarded it not only from the point of view of esoteric practices but also as a philosophical system which had conserved the original Indian teaching.

http://www.daozangjiyao.org/DZJY_E/Monica_Esposito_CV_files/Esposito_Zogchen_in_China.pdf