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I think it was Shunryu Suzuki who said that the whole of the Buddha's teaching can be summed up in three words, "Not always so". I can't comment on the whole of the Buddha's teaching, not having read it, but "not always so" is I think true of the meaning of words. There's no solid link between a word and it's meaning, and so words can "slide" about over different meanings, meaning different things at different times e.g. the word "gay". I'm old enough to remember when it meant something close to "happy" (One of my favourite poems is a medieval English tale, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, but I always smile at the references to "King Arthur and his gay knights"!)
And words can mean different things to different people at the same time too, something I often see in my work as a Mediator e.g to one person "pedantic" may mean something close to "meticulous" and be intended as a form of praise, to another it means something close to "anally retentive" and is therefore a fearful insult, and before you know if the parties are in dispute over what was intended as praise from one to the other. It keeps Mediators in business I suppose. And yes, one can try to define words, but only with other words, which again don't have absolutely fixed meanings, so I wonder if definitions can really tie down the meaning of a word.
Which is partly why I find Elohim's references to the original Pali so interesting. When I read terms in English I come to them with our own cultural and personal assumptions about what the words mean that aren't necessarily shared by the person who used them, and which certainly may not reflect the assumptions that a Pali speaker may have had 2,500 years ago. Learning about the original words and their meanings is a way of opening up my mind to possible meanings and nuances that I would not have perceived "behind" the English word. Thank you Elohim.
And yet, in the final analysis, presumably the Pali words are also "just" words, whose meanings can only ever be approximated but never quite be grasped or tied down, not even by definitions (which consist of other words). Ultimately, I wonder if words as well as teachings are not just a finger pointing at the moon, and we shouldn't mistake the finger for the moon, or the word (Pali, English, Norfolk (we have our own here!) or whatever) for the meaning. Which may - I don't know - be part of what Simon is saying. And which means that it's very useful, even skillful, to learn about the Pali, but doesn't make the Pali is some kind of sanctified version, which of course Elohim wasn't implying either.
Martin.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Not supercilious but, unwittingly perhaps, elitist. What you suggest is also what I term "faith-specific fascism". I know that the term is strong but I feel strongly about it.
The logical outcome of your position is to create a hierarchy of practitioners where the old arguments between Pali Canon and the rest of the scriptures become battlegrounds of academic argument. At the bottom of this pyramid will. once again, be the unlettered, the anawim. It will recreate aristocracy.Pali, although some historians dispute whether he actually spoke it. Why sanctify it?
I'm not really sure what this objection is about, Simon. I understand that what you added to this discussion was that the concept behind 'mindfulness'--as an idea--is not necessarily unique to Buddhism. Jason's position is not different from the position he has consistently adopted on this forum: the focus of his study is the Pali Canon. He posts with humility and self-deprication. What may be perceived as potentially 'elitist' is perhaps the authority with which he is able to articulate and ground his claims about questions, such as 'mindfulness', in specific suttas of the Pali Canon.
I think the logical outcome is nonsense. Perhaps if Jason picked fights and put others down as a result of his learning, that would be one thing. That is not the case for me.
I am not one to bash academic study. I understand the fear of hierarchy and elitism. If it were another member, Simon, I might tend towards your position. In this case, Jason does not claim to be the tender of the fire, he simply sits by its warmth. I appreciate his posts, as I do yours, Simon.
I think critical dialogue is important--we should challenge one another. But let's do it in a way that is respectful rather than hurtful.
It is an accident of history that the Buddha Shakyamuni's words were remembered in Pali, although some historians dispute whether he actually spoke it. Why sanctify it?
One argument may be that as perhaps one of the earliest textual, sacred languages of Buddhism (another is Prakrit), the grammar and syntax has been shaped for and by Buddhism to convey timeless truths and concepts. Isn't that reason enough?
You have made some very good points, and have said some very nice things. From time to time it is good to know where it is that you are doing well, and where it is that you need some improving. Quite often it takes the wisdom of someone else to point both of those things out to you. A different perspective can be a very valuable thing. Simon, I would like to apologize for my initial reaction, and for anything else that I might have unskillfully said before hand.
I shall be reflecting on the last few days as I go to the hospital for some tests today. Maybe Fede and Brigid are right and I am waspish because of my meds.
Bear with me, please.
Love
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
This made me think of another post that I put ... somewhere...
Like I said in that post, sometimes being mindful is taking the time to think about what someone has said to us and why they have said it. Instead of, like I do, immediately letting my "ego" become hurt and responding in kind.
I don't think that any of us out here honestly believe that someone is going to rip into us just for satisfaction, vendetta or just to hurt feelings. I think we all know each other better than that.
All of us will find that we will go through difficult situations and sometimes - our sangha is the only "safe" place we can go to for a sounding board.
Even Buddha dealt with people having anger or dealing with difficulties with deep amounts of compassion. Even those that would rant against him - he simply left them with their rantings.
I firmly believe that our sangha only wishes peace upon it's members. But, sometimes day to day stuff gets in the way.
I shall be reflecting on the last few days as I go to the hospital for some tests today. Maybe Fede and Brigid are right and I am waspish because of my meds.
Bear with me, please.
Love
A million blessings to you, Simon. Bearing with you will be an honour and a privilege. Funny things happen in the brain after heart incidents and people can do things that are completely out of character. Like my dad. But he was pretty difficult to begin with. lol!
You, on the other hand, are not difficult and it's a testament to your true character that we would notice any change so acutely.
I'm wishing you fabulous results on your tests and a doctor with the same compassion you have shown in your life.
While practicing mindfulness, don’t be dominated by the distinction between good and evil, thus creating a battle within oneself.
Whenever a wholesome thought arises, acknowledge it: “A wholesome thought has just arisen.” If an unwholesome thought arises, acknowledge it as well: “An unwholesome thought has just arisen.” Don’t dwell on it or try to get rid of it. To acknowledge it is enough. If they are still there, acknowledge they are still there. If they have gone, acknowledge they have gone. That way the practitioner is able to hold of his mind and to obtain the mindfulness of the mind.
— The Miracle of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh. p.39
I don't understand this, so when practicing mindfulness, you're not supposed to have good thoughts, such as compassion thoughts for someone?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
Just let the thoughts come and go... Observe them, but be Mindful of your thoughts words and deeds...they need to be skilful and supported by the Eightfold path...
Why are you creating so much anxiety for yourself? Just relax... you are so intent on doing the 'Right' thing, that you are not seeming to enjoy Life....its liberty and freedom of Being is passing you by!
Life is a wonderful privilege..It should be spent in tranquil Joy, not constant appraisal!
OK, I've decided, I'm going to quit trying to practice mindfulness. My happiness has been based upon this, I thought mindfulness is gonna help me performed better in my daily life, I believed I will be happy when I get the hang of it. I guess I was wrong. I'm gonna aim lower, to things that I can be happy with. I've been thinking too much. I gonna free myself. Thank you all for helping me and answering my questions.
* Vaccha and N1N2... I greatly value your contributions and know that what you say is charged with both wisdom and knowledge...However, could I just say that this is Buddhism 101 and not 102....
There is a thread titled 'Mindfulness of Breathing' on Forum Buddhism 202 upon which one could expand.... Similarly, perhaps you might like to just open a thread there on Mindfulness alone.
I would be grateful therefore if you would, on this forum, keep your posts short, simple and easily digested. This is not the place for great and verbose expansion.
Thank you both so much. *
Alright, Fine!:grumble: But Vaccha started it.
Anyway, let's try again, shall we?
ro10,
Basically, What Ven. TNH is saying is specific to mindfulness practice. In mindfulness practice we do not actively value judge our thoughts. If we have a bad thought (lust, anger, etc), we don't start mentally berating ourselves. If we have a good thought (compassion, joy) then we don't start celebrating. We just notice the thought and whatever the mind says about it (good, bad, nuetral), and we move on.
TNH said this:
don’t be dominated by the distinction between good and evil
It's not that you get rid of the distinction. You just don't let your mind be dominated by this distinction.
Sure, good thoughts are preferable, but we don't get lost in our preferences, clinging to the good and repressing the bad. The key here is not to get too personally involved (dominated) by this sort of value judgement. We are cultivating awareness here, not value judgement. We are also working on letting go of clinging to our thoughts & feelings.
FYI, there are other methods of contemplation and meditation which intentionally cultivate compassion and Wisdom. I would be happy to provide you with some links, if you would like.
Hope this was a little more basic.
_/\_
metta
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
OK, I've decided, I'm going to quit trying to practice mindfulness. My happiness has been based upon this, I thought mindfulness is gonna help me performed better in my daily life, I believed I will be happy when I get the hang of it. I guess I was wrong. I'm gonna aim lower, to things that I can be happy with. I've been thinking too much. I gonna free myself. Thank you all for helping me and answering my questions.
Andy
Good post, Andy. Going back to the beginning is always a good thing to do, no matter how far along the path you are.
Remember, we don't practice mindfulness so that we can perform better in our daily lives. We practice mindfulness because we usually go through life on auto-pilot, distracted, not paying attention to this moment right now. We practice mindfulness because we want to wake up and pay attention.
But it is causing you distress because you have given the practice of mindfulness a task to complete. That task is to help you perform better in life. Don't assign a task for mindfulness to complete. Don't give it a job to do. It's only a tool to help you do a job. Your job is to follow The Noble Eightfold Path. But right now you're not sure how to use the tool of mindfulness. That's O.K. Just spending time in the workshop itself is helpful. You don't have to pick up any of the tools yet. Just look around and get acquainted. Take in the smells, the sounds, the sights. You don't have to do anything at all right now. Just being in the workshop is good enough because it's the right place to be and one day you'll be able to pick up the tools and start using them. But not today. Today all you have to do is hang out.
My point was actually very simple, and I can sum it up quite briefly: consistent establishment of good thoughts and the expulsion of unwholesome thoughts is indeed an application of "right mindfulness".
V.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
Well why dincha say sow!?!?
Thanks Vaccha....More succinct and to the point, you couldn't hope to get - !
Nice one!! :thumbsup:
Ok, I'm being stupid again. I've think about daily mindfulness again today. I just don't get how other could be so happy doing house chore, I seemed to want to do that but if I try to watch my body movement while doing it, I'll would get self-conscious, and insecure. I've been staying off the forum in hope I'll would forget this mindfulness things, but I did it again. I hate myself so much. When I'm alone with nothing to do, I'll think about this, and worry, and insecure. I wish I didn't read about mindfulness in the first place. Well, I'm just doing 5 minutes counting breath a day, would this consider as right meditation or mindfulness? Would this sitting practice will eventually get me how to do thing mindfully, such as bliss doing house chore? My mind right now is pretty disturbed.
we CAN be insecure, fretful or worry if we are doing dishes and thinking about what is goin to happen in the future.. ( the next hour, the next day etc. )
we can be regretful, down on ourselves, negative or stressed if we are doing the dishes
and thinking about what we have done in the past.. ( 5 min. ago, last week month etc. )
that is ONE GOOD REASON.. to be mindful and do the dishes with our thoughts in the present.
i tryed to keep this short and simple.. i will PM you later.
iv read some good material about mindfulness and will keep it simple in explaination.
Thich Naht Han .. has some easy read / easy learning... on the subject..
Hi Andy....
I too have been struggling with this mindfulness thing...
I happened to be browsing a discount book store and came across this book, "Mindfulness with Breathing". It starts off with just what you said, breath.
It is written by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, translated from Thai by Santikaro Bhikku.
So far I am really enjoying it and it;s very helpful.
It's about "developing life". According to the author, we lack the 'secret' and understanding of the extent to which life can truly be developed. The main cause being dukkha, or stress, conflict, agitation (samsara). The author goes on explain the 4 aspects of developing life.
If you or anyone, would like more information, PM me...as I do not wish to ramble and bore anyone...
I don't mean this in a bad way - but it's the quickest way to cut to the chase...
There is a difference between being Mindful and being borderline OCD.
Not that you are! I'm just saying that there is a way to be mindful of what you are doing without taking it to an extreme.
Being mindful of what we are doing at the moment - means being aware of the moment. When being mindful doing dishes - we should be aware of what we're doing - not putting so much mental thought into it that someone would think we're trying to clean the dishes with telepathy.
When interacting with loved ones - do we concentrate so hard on what we're moving, what we're touching, what they're saying that we lose the moment of the actual interaction?
One side of the path - over studying everything you're doing too much that you can't see the beauty or happiness of the moment.
Middle Path - being aware and mindful of what is happening with you and around you.
Other side of the path - being oblivious as to what is going on around you.
Now... there are exercises that we can practice - which is exactly that... "practice". It's something we do at a specific time to hone "mindfulness" in us. But at those times, it's just practice.
I hope you will forgive me for disagreeing with you here, but I feel that what you have said in the beginning does not agree with the quote you provided, nor with my understanding. To my thinking the quote is more correct and your comment less correct with regard to one or two points.
I think this is still too advanced for some of us beginners. I know this is probably frustrating for you but for some of us things have to be explained in simpler ways.
When we're at the very beginning of practicing Buddhism some of us are not even aware that the dog is leading us. So in order to begin being mindful we first have to understand and be aware that the dog, our mind, is leading us all over the place and is very unruly. This takes time and some of us are still at this stage.
Only when we are aware that we are being pulled all over the place by our minds are we beginning to be mindful. If we're just beginning to see how this works we can't be expected to jump ahead and understand the finer points and distinctions between mindfulness and concentration and so forth. It's just confusing. Different minds learn in different ways and at different speeds, especially when there's an emotional block in place that prevents us from coming to an understanding of something that seems simple to others but baffling to ourselves.
You're very advanced and if I may use another analogy you're like the computer expert trying to explain things to someone who has never used a computer before and has fear and discomfort about doing so. I can see how it must be frustrating for you, although you haven't expressed any frustration whatsoever. I appreciate what your saying and it has helped me a great deal but this may not be the case for others. We need it to be simpler and more basic. But, again, thank you.
Thanks for your words. I really am not trying to get too advanced here, I am trying to cut down to the most basic ideas of what mindfulness really is (in my view ). That what I am saying is confusing for anybody I can only apologize for, and probably it's just the manner in which I'm accustomed to expressing things. It could also be that I sometimes disagree with the more conventional ideas or other poster's interpretations that it might seem like I'm trying to bring the level of discussion up a notch to the highly technical. But really my intention is that if someone is having difficulty understanding mindfulness, maybe the introduction of a way of looking at it that nobody has yet mentioned will be helpful. What I am trying to communicate is really basic building blocks of practice, not just advanced notions (to my way of thinking, all of the Buddha's teaching on the four noble truths is Buddhism 101, and the only thing left is putting into sincere and ardent practice). I've tried to come up with analogies and examples of teachings all as ways of approximating the basic orientation to beginning mindfulness that I feel will be helpful.
It occurs to me that some of your comments about not being aware that the dog is leading us speaks moreso to Right View than to Right Mindfulness. Let me try to summarize all my comments in a very simple way. The basic idea I am trying to communicate is that Right Mindfulness is essentially reversal of habit. The mind's habit is to go out and become stirred up by things and happenings, like an excited dog on a leash. Right View is to see this is happening and that it needs correcting and Right Mindfulness is to reverse this habit, to "heed the leash" so to speak. In other words, "Right Heel" (or left heel, as it may be).
The mind's habit is to go out and become stirred up by things and happenings, like an excited dog on a leash. Right View is to see this is happening and that it needs correcting and Right Mindfulness is to reverse this habit, to "heed the leash" so to speak.
Exactly. But people understand things in different ways and sometimes it's really difficult to understand what one is being taught when there are too many details included in the instructions. It's too complicated and involved, Vacch. It becomes confusing.
That's why I used your analogy to explain that mindfulness requires elements of Right View before an attempt can be made to apply it correctly. But I wasn't about to start going on about the application of Right View being a prerequisite for mindfulness blah, blah, blah. Advanced students already understand how The Noble Eightfold Path is applied. But some of us are just getting to know how our minds work for the first time in our lives. It's too difficult to get into the technicalities at this point. It's intimidating, confusing and off putting. Do you know what I mean? It needs to be streamlined and simplified and not over explained or analyzed. At least for Buddhism 101. We can get into the finer points in Buddhism 202 but I think we need to keep it as uncomplicated as possible here. This can't be a scholarly discussion because it does a disservice to beginners. It's not a safe, friendly, welcoming place when things start going over the heads of beginners. I know you're really not trying to confuse anybody. I understand that. But what your saying is confusing to beginners nonetheless. Do you see how that could be? You can stretch the muscles of your understanding in 202, O.K? Let's keep this area for the beginners. Really, please?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
NOTICE TO ALL:
I HAVE REMOVED SEVERAL OF THE COMPLEX AND CONVOLUTED POSTS FROM THIS THREAD. HOWEVER, THERE IS NOW A (COMPLETE & UNABRIDGED) COPY OF THIS VERY THREAD IN FORUM BUDDHISM 202. SHOULD YOU WISH TO CONTINUE IN THIS VEIN, KINDLY DO SO THERE. AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE (AND AS BRIGID HAS POINTED OUT YET AGAIN) THIS FORUM IS FOR THE BEGINNER ONLY.
I'm not trying to do anything other than, as a fellow student, help "beginners" who are admittedly having trouble understanding mindfulness see this issue from a fresh perspective in the context of the Buddha's teaching on these subjects. Thanks, federica, for creating the 202 thread, but I have no use for that. I wouldn't have posted anything if there weren't people asking for help or new ways to see their problems with mindfulness. If anybody has any questions which might help me to simplify and clarify what I have said, I welcome you to offer them here and hopefully we can boil it down. Otherwise, I can see that what I have volunteered is, to put it bluntly, not welcome.
in friendliness,
V.
Ok, I'm being stupid again. I've think about daily mindfulness again today. I just don't get how other could be so happy doing house chore, I seemed to want to do that but if I try to watch my body movement while doing it, I'll would get self-conscious, and insecure.
When you say you get self-conscious, does that mean you are worried about other people seeing you, or whether you are doing it right?
What I would do here, if I were you, is try to incorporate what is called 'bare-attention' or 'non-reactive awareness' to balance this out. Basically, this means you just notice where your mind is going (even when it's not doing what you want). Don't intentionally judge yourself and say "crap, I screwed up. I suck at this" or anything like that.
Just notice that the mind is being self-conscious or insecure for a bit. Don't be in a rush to get back to your body movement. Let yourself experience the thoughts & the feelings associated with them for a bit. Then, when you can acknowledge the anxiety and confusion, you can let them go very gently.
For me it helps to do this in conjunction with a relaxing outbreath. Then, as the tension is relieved gently return to your body movement. Repeat this process as many times as you notice yourself being distracted by insecurity and self-consciousness (or whatever).
Your mind doesn't like to be pinned down, and is in the habit of wandering freely. Don't expect this to change for quite some time. Expect this to be a long process which gradually gains momentum. Don't be discouraged, this does get easier. May I also suggest that you are anxious because this is something very new to you, and you are in unfamiliar territory which you are not accustomed to. It takes a while to get your 'sea-legs' so to speak.
I've been staying off the forum in hope I'll would forget this mindfulness things, but I did it again. I hate myself so much. When I'm alone with nothing to do, I'll think about this, and worry, and insecure.
Sounds like you are being very hard on yourself. This practice is difficult and very few people even attempt to do it. You are a rare individual in this world, merely by the fact that you are attempting to wake up! You are also doing it without a teacher, which makes it even more difficult. Would you give yourself a hard time for not being able to teach yourself Calculus a couple days? Is this sort of thinking helping you be free from suffering?? I doubt it. Chances are it's a habit you've accumulated over the years quite unconsciously. Why not wake up to it and the suffering it causes you? Do you really want to keep this thinking around? I know I wouldn't.
Maybe you need to look into 'metta bhavana' (loving-kindness) practice. I think it would be an excellent and wholesome practice for you. Here is a link with instructions & audio: http://www.buddhanet.net/metta_vp.htm
I wish I didn't read about mindfulness in the first place. Well, I'm just doing 5 minutes counting breath a day, would this consider as right meditation or mindfulness? Would this sitting practice will eventually get me how to do thing mindfully, such as bliss doing house chore? My mind right now is pretty disturbed.
~Andy
Give it time, give it time. You have come accross something that others say brings happiness, and you want to master it right away. This desire to master it right away is completely understandable, but it is only going to make you suffer more. That is certainly not Right Mindfulness. Please do listen to the audio links provided by Elohim on the 202 mindfulness thread, especially the first one.
'Right Mindfulness' or 'Appropriate Attention' means being mindful in the context of the Four Noble truths. This means being aware of suffering, its cause/source, it's cessation and activities which bring about it's cessation. Activities which bring about the cessation of suffering are called skillful or wholesome (kusala). Right Mindfulness is really about being mindful of what activities actually do this.
Remember, the Buddha said that he only taught 2 things, suffering and the end of suffering. If what you are doing is just causing you more suffering, chances are you are doing something wrong. But in order to find out what you are doing wrong, you really have to get to the bottom of things. You have to really get to know yourself, especially that part of you which is so critical and never satisfied. Doing meditation is not just about getting concentrated. By controlling certain things, such as posture and your attention, you get very acquanted with your bad habits as the mind really tries to rebel. You really start to see all the habits which have caused yourself and others suffering over the years. This is the Insight aspect of meditation, and is very valuable. So, don't fight this process too much. You're going to run into a lot of obstacles and difficulties. But, this is where you really learn and gain the ability to help others through their obstacles and difficulties. Really!!
Anyway, I hope this helps. Please do listen to at least the 'Appropriate Attention' link. It cleared some things up for me, and it's easy to follow. Ven. Thanissaro Bhikku is a wonderful teacher. Also, if anything I said was confusing, please let me know, and I'll try to break it down further. In the meantime, cut yourself some slack. You are still learning. Being hard on yourself may be one of the ways you motivate yourself, but in this practice, it is something to let go of.
Take care
_/\_
metta
P.S.- I really tried to avoid technical discussion, although this did turn out to be quite long. If you need me to, fede, I'll transfer this post over to the 202 discussion and leave a link from here.
P.P.S.- I would suggest trying to work up to 10 or 15 minutes for breath meditation, but take it at a very comfortable pace. I have heard it said that it is more beneficial to meditate for 2 minutes at a time consistently than to do long sessions sporadically. There is no hurry, you've got incalculable aeons to do this if you need them .
Comments
And words can mean different things to different people at the same time too, something I often see in my work as a Mediator e.g to one person "pedantic" may mean something close to "meticulous" and be intended as a form of praise, to another it means something close to "anally retentive" and is therefore a fearful insult, and before you know if the parties are in dispute over what was intended as praise from one to the other. It keeps Mediators in business I suppose. And yes, one can try to define words, but only with other words, which again don't have absolutely fixed meanings, so I wonder if definitions can really tie down the meaning of a word.
Which is partly why I find Elohim's references to the original Pali so interesting. When I read terms in English I come to them with our own cultural and personal assumptions about what the words mean that aren't necessarily shared by the person who used them, and which certainly may not reflect the assumptions that a Pali speaker may have had 2,500 years ago. Learning about the original words and their meanings is a way of opening up my mind to possible meanings and nuances that I would not have perceived "behind" the English word. Thank you Elohim.
And yet, in the final analysis, presumably the Pali words are also "just" words, whose meanings can only ever be approximated but never quite be grasped or tied down, not even by definitions (which consist of other words). Ultimately, I wonder if words as well as teachings are not just a finger pointing at the moon, and we shouldn't mistake the finger for the moon, or the word (Pali, English, Norfolk (we have our own here!) or whatever) for the meaning. Which may - I don't know - be part of what Simon is saying. And which means that it's very useful, even skillful, to learn about the Pali, but doesn't make the Pali is some kind of sanctified version, which of course Elohim wasn't implying either.
Martin.
I'm not really sure what this objection is about, Simon. I understand that what you added to this discussion was that the concept behind 'mindfulness'--as an idea--is not necessarily unique to Buddhism. Jason's position is not different from the position he has consistently adopted on this forum: the focus of his study is the Pali Canon. He posts with humility and self-deprication. What may be perceived as potentially 'elitist' is perhaps the authority with which he is able to articulate and ground his claims about questions, such as 'mindfulness', in specific suttas of the Pali Canon.
I think the logical outcome is nonsense. Perhaps if Jason picked fights and put others down as a result of his learning, that would be one thing. That is not the case for me.
I am not one to bash academic study. I understand the fear of hierarchy and elitism. If it were another member, Simon, I might tend towards your position. In this case, Jason does not claim to be the tender of the fire, he simply sits by its warmth. I appreciate his posts, as I do yours, Simon.
I think critical dialogue is important--we should challenge one another. But let's do it in a way that is respectful rather than hurtful.
One argument may be that as perhaps one of the earliest textual, sacred languages of Buddhism (another is Prakrit), the grammar and syntax has been shaped for and by Buddhism to convey timeless truths and concepts. Isn't that reason enough?
You have made some very good points, and have said some very nice things. From time to time it is good to know where it is that you are doing well, and where it is that you need some improving. Quite often it takes the wisdom of someone else to point both of those things out to you. A different perspective can be a very valuable thing. Simon, I would like to apologize for my initial reaction, and for anything else that I might have unskillfully said before hand.
Sincerely,
Jason
EVERYONE GET YER ARSES OVER HERE FOR A GROUP HUG!
-bf
I shall be reflecting on the last few days as I go to the hospital for some tests today. Maybe Fede and Brigid are right and I am waspish because of my meds.
Bear with me, please.
Love
Thinking of you.
Group hug indeed....
Like I said in that post, sometimes being mindful is taking the time to think about what someone has said to us and why they have said it. Instead of, like I do, immediately letting my "ego" become hurt and responding in kind.
I don't think that any of us out here honestly believe that someone is going to rip into us just for satisfaction, vendetta or just to hurt feelings. I think we all know each other better than that.
All of us will find that we will go through difficult situations and sometimes - our sangha is the only "safe" place we can go to for a sounding board.
Even Buddha dealt with people having anger or dealing with difficulties with deep amounts of compassion. Even those that would rant against him - he simply left them with their rantings.
I firmly believe that our sangha only wishes peace upon it's members. But, sometimes day to day stuff gets in the way.
-bf
A million blessings to you, Simon. Bearing with you will be an honour and a privilege. Funny things happen in the brain after heart incidents and people can do things that are completely out of character. Like my dad. But he was pretty difficult to begin with. lol!
You, on the other hand, are not difficult and it's a testament to your true character that we would notice any change so acutely.
I'm wishing you fabulous results on your tests and a doctor with the same compassion you have shown in your life.
Much, much love, Simon,
Brigid
I don't understand this, so when practicing mindfulness, you're not supposed to have good thoughts, such as compassion thoughts for someone?
Why are you creating so much anxiety for yourself? Just relax... you are so intent on doing the 'Right' thing, that you are not seeming to enjoy Life....its liberty and freedom of Being is passing you by!
Life is a wonderful privilege..It should be spent in tranquil Joy, not constant appraisal!
Chill! Breathe! LET GO!!
Andy
Alright, Fine!:grumble: But Vaccha started it.
Anyway, let's try again, shall we?
ro10,
Basically, What Ven. TNH is saying is specific to mindfulness practice. In mindfulness practice we do not actively value judge our thoughts. If we have a bad thought (lust, anger, etc), we don't start mentally berating ourselves. If we have a good thought (compassion, joy) then we don't start celebrating. We just notice the thought and whatever the mind says about it (good, bad, nuetral), and we move on.
TNH said this:
It's not that you get rid of the distinction. You just don't let your mind be dominated by this distinction.
Sure, good thoughts are preferable, but we don't get lost in our preferences, clinging to the good and repressing the bad. The key here is not to get too personally involved (dominated) by this sort of value judgement. We are cultivating awareness here, not value judgement. We are also working on letting go of clinging to our thoughts & feelings.
FYI, there are other methods of contemplation and meditation which intentionally cultivate compassion and Wisdom. I would be happy to provide you with some links, if you would like.
Hope this was a little more basic.
_/\_
metta
Good post, Andy. Going back to the beginning is always a good thing to do, no matter how far along the path you are.
Remember, we don't practice mindfulness so that we can perform better in our daily lives. We practice mindfulness because we usually go through life on auto-pilot, distracted, not paying attention to this moment right now. We practice mindfulness because we want to wake up and pay attention.
But it is causing you distress because you have given the practice of mindfulness a task to complete. That task is to help you perform better in life. Don't assign a task for mindfulness to complete. Don't give it a job to do. It's only a tool to help you do a job. Your job is to follow The Noble Eightfold Path. But right now you're not sure how to use the tool of mindfulness. That's O.K. Just spending time in the workshop itself is helpful. You don't have to pick up any of the tools yet. Just look around and get acquainted. Take in the smells, the sounds, the sights. You don't have to do anything at all right now. Just being in the workshop is good enough because it's the right place to be and one day you'll be able to pick up the tools and start using them. But not today. Today all you have to do is hang out.
Your friend,
Brigid
My point was actually very simple, and I can sum it up quite briefly: consistent establishment of good thoughts and the expulsion of unwholesome thoughts is indeed an application of "right mindfulness".
V.
Thanks Vaccha....More succinct and to the point, you couldn't hope to get - !
Nice one!! :thumbsup:
~Andy
let me say this ... ( and i will pm you later. )
we CAN be insecure, fretful or worry if we are doing dishes and thinking about what is goin to happen in the future.. ( the next hour, the next day etc. )
we can be regretful, down on ourselves, negative or stressed if we are doing the dishes
and thinking about what we have done in the past.. ( 5 min. ago, last week month etc. )
that is ONE GOOD REASON.. to be mindful and do the dishes with our thoughts in the present.
i tryed to keep this short and simple.. i will PM you later.
iv read some good material about mindfulness and will keep it simple in explaination.
Thich Naht Han .. has some easy read / easy learning... on the subject..
I too have been struggling with this mindfulness thing...
I happened to be browsing a discount book store and came across this book, "Mindfulness with Breathing". It starts off with just what you said, breath.
It is written by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, translated from Thai by Santikaro Bhikku.
So far I am really enjoying it and it;s very helpful.
It's about "developing life". According to the author, we lack the 'secret' and understanding of the extent to which life can truly be developed. The main cause being dukkha, or stress, conflict, agitation (samsara). The author goes on explain the 4 aspects of developing life.
If you or anyone, would like more information, PM me...as I do not wish to ramble and bore anyone...
Good Luck...:)
I don't mean this in a bad way - but it's the quickest way to cut to the chase...
There is a difference between being Mindful and being borderline OCD.
Not that you are! I'm just saying that there is a way to be mindful of what you are doing without taking it to an extreme.
Being mindful of what we are doing at the moment - means being aware of the moment. When being mindful doing dishes - we should be aware of what we're doing - not putting so much mental thought into it that someone would think we're trying to clean the dishes with telepathy.
When interacting with loved ones - do we concentrate so hard on what we're moving, what we're touching, what they're saying that we lose the moment of the actual interaction?
One side of the path - over studying everything you're doing too much that you can't see the beauty or happiness of the moment.
Middle Path - being aware and mindful of what is happening with you and around you.
Other side of the path - being oblivious as to what is going on around you.
Now... there are exercises that we can practice - which is exactly that... "practice". It's something we do at a specific time to hone "mindfulness" in us. But at those times, it's just practice.
Any of that make sense?
-bf
Take it slow. It won't happen overnight.
For those of you interested in the practice of mindfulness, these three talks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu might prove to be of some value:
Appropriate Attention
The Breath: A Vehicle for Liberation (Part 1)
The Breath: A Vehicle for Liberation (Part 2)
Sincerely,
Jason
I think this is still too advanced for some of us beginners. I know this is probably frustrating for you but for some of us things have to be explained in simpler ways.
When we're at the very beginning of practicing Buddhism some of us are not even aware that the dog is leading us. So in order to begin being mindful we first have to understand and be aware that the dog, our mind, is leading us all over the place and is very unruly. This takes time and some of us are still at this stage.
Only when we are aware that we are being pulled all over the place by our minds are we beginning to be mindful. If we're just beginning to see how this works we can't be expected to jump ahead and understand the finer points and distinctions between mindfulness and concentration and so forth. It's just confusing. Different minds learn in different ways and at different speeds, especially when there's an emotional block in place that prevents us from coming to an understanding of something that seems simple to others but baffling to ourselves.
You're very advanced and if I may use another analogy you're like the computer expert trying to explain things to someone who has never used a computer before and has fear and discomfort about doing so. I can see how it must be frustrating for you, although you haven't expressed any frustration whatsoever. I appreciate what your saying and it has helped me a great deal but this may not be the case for others. We need it to be simpler and more basic. But, again, thank you.
Thanks for your words. I really am not trying to get too advanced here, I am trying to cut down to the most basic ideas of what mindfulness really is (in my view
It occurs to me that some of your comments about not being aware that the dog is leading us speaks moreso to Right View than to Right Mindfulness. Let me try to summarize all my comments in a very simple way. The basic idea I am trying to communicate is that Right Mindfulness is essentially reversal of habit. The mind's habit is to go out and become stirred up by things and happenings, like an excited dog on a leash. Right View is to see this is happening and that it needs correcting and Right Mindfulness is to reverse this habit, to "heed the leash" so to speak. In other words, "Right Heel"
in friendliness,
V.
Exactly. But people understand things in different ways and sometimes it's really difficult to understand what one is being taught when there are too many details included in the instructions. It's too complicated and involved, Vacch. It becomes confusing.
That's why I used your analogy to explain that mindfulness requires elements of Right View before an attempt can be made to apply it correctly. But I wasn't about to start going on about the application of Right View being a prerequisite for mindfulness blah, blah, blah. Advanced students already understand how The Noble Eightfold Path is applied. But some of us are just getting to know how our minds work for the first time in our lives. It's too difficult to get into the technicalities at this point. It's intimidating, confusing and off putting. Do you know what I mean? It needs to be streamlined and simplified and not over explained or analyzed. At least for Buddhism 101. We can get into the finer points in Buddhism 202 but I think we need to keep it as uncomplicated as possible here. This can't be a scholarly discussion because it does a disservice to beginners. It's not a safe, friendly, welcoming place when things start going over the heads of beginners. I know you're really not trying to confuse anybody. I understand that. But what your saying is confusing to beginners nonetheless. Do you see how that could be? You can stretch the muscles of your understanding in 202, O.K? Let's keep this area for the beginners. Really, please?
I HAVE REMOVED SEVERAL OF THE COMPLEX AND CONVOLUTED POSTS FROM THIS THREAD. HOWEVER, THERE IS NOW A (COMPLETE & UNABRIDGED) COPY OF THIS VERY THREAD IN FORUM BUDDHISM 202. SHOULD YOU WISH TO CONTINUE IN THIS VEIN, KINDLY DO SO THERE. AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE (AND AS BRIGID HAS POINTED OUT YET AGAIN) THIS FORUM IS FOR THE BEGINNER ONLY.
THANK YOU.
carry on.
I'm not trying to do anything other than, as a fellow student, help "beginners" who are admittedly having trouble understanding mindfulness see this issue from a fresh perspective in the context of the Buddha's teaching on these subjects. Thanks, federica, for creating the 202 thread, but I have no use for that. I wouldn't have posted anything if there weren't people asking for help or new ways to see their problems with mindfulness. If anybody has any questions which might help me to simplify and clarify what I have said, I welcome you to offer them here and hopefully we can boil it down. Otherwise, I can see that what I have volunteered is, to put it bluntly, not welcome.
in friendliness,
V.
When you say you get self-conscious, does that mean you are worried about other people seeing you, or whether you are doing it right?
What I would do here, if I were you, is try to incorporate what is called 'bare-attention' or 'non-reactive awareness' to balance this out. Basically, this means you just notice where your mind is going (even when it's not doing what you want). Don't intentionally judge yourself and say "crap, I screwed up. I suck at this" or anything like that.
Just notice that the mind is being self-conscious or insecure for a bit. Don't be in a rush to get back to your body movement. Let yourself experience the thoughts & the feelings associated with them for a bit. Then, when you can acknowledge the anxiety and confusion, you can let them go very gently.
For me it helps to do this in conjunction with a relaxing outbreath. Then, as the tension is relieved gently return to your body movement. Repeat this process as many times as you notice yourself being distracted by insecurity and self-consciousness (or whatever).
Your mind doesn't like to be pinned down, and is in the habit of wandering freely. Don't expect this to change for quite some time. Expect this to be a long process which gradually gains momentum. Don't be discouraged, this does get easier. May I also suggest that you are anxious because this is something very new to you, and you are in unfamiliar territory which you are not accustomed to. It takes a while to get your 'sea-legs' so to speak.
Sounds like you are being very hard on yourself. This practice is difficult and very few people even attempt to do it. You are a rare individual in this world, merely by the fact that you are attempting to wake up! You are also doing it without a teacher, which makes it even more difficult. Would you give yourself a hard time for not being able to teach yourself Calculus a couple days? Is this sort of thinking helping you be free from suffering?? I doubt it. Chances are it's a habit you've accumulated over the years quite unconsciously. Why not wake up to it and the suffering it causes you? Do you really want to keep this thinking around? I know I wouldn't.
Maybe you need to look into 'metta bhavana' (loving-kindness) practice. I think it would be an excellent and wholesome practice for you. Here is a link with instructions & audio:
http://www.buddhanet.net/metta_vp.htm
Give it time, give it time. You have come accross something that others say brings happiness, and you want to master it right away. This desire to master it right away is completely understandable, but it is only going to make you suffer more. That is certainly not Right Mindfulness. Please do listen to the audio links provided by Elohim on the 202 mindfulness thread, especially the first one.
'Right Mindfulness' or 'Appropriate Attention' means being mindful in the context of the Four Noble truths. This means being aware of suffering, its cause/source, it's cessation and activities which bring about it's cessation. Activities which bring about the cessation of suffering are called skillful or wholesome (kusala). Right Mindfulness is really about being mindful of what activities actually do this.
Remember, the Buddha said that he only taught 2 things, suffering and the end of suffering. If what you are doing is just causing you more suffering, chances are you are doing something wrong. But in order to find out what you are doing wrong, you really have to get to the bottom of things. You have to really get to know yourself, especially that part of you which is so critical and never satisfied. Doing meditation is not just about getting concentrated. By controlling certain things, such as posture and your attention, you get very acquanted with your bad habits as the mind really tries to rebel. You really start to see all the habits which have caused yourself and others suffering over the years. This is the Insight aspect of meditation, and is very valuable. So, don't fight this process too much. You're going to run into a lot of obstacles and difficulties. But, this is where you really learn and gain the ability to help others through their obstacles and difficulties. Really!!
Anyway, I hope this helps. Please do listen to at least the 'Appropriate Attention' link. It cleared some things up for me, and it's easy to follow. Ven. Thanissaro Bhikku is a wonderful teacher. Also, if anything I said was confusing, please let me know, and I'll try to break it down further. In the meantime, cut yourself some slack. You are still learning. Being hard on yourself may be one of the ways you motivate yourself, but in this practice, it is something to let go of.
Take care
_/\_
metta
P.S.- I really tried to avoid technical discussion, although this did turn out to be quite long. If you need me to, fede, I'll transfer this post over to the 202 discussion and leave a link from here.
P.P.S.- I would suggest trying to work up to 10 or 15 minutes for breath meditation, but take it at a very comfortable pace. I have heard it said that it is more beneficial to meditate for 2 minutes at a time consistently than to do long sessions sporadically. There is no hurry, you've got incalculable aeons to do this if you need them
Now we're talking!! This is the kind of stuff that I, as a beginner, find truly helpful. You're a really good teacher.
Andy,
Please take notice of what Not1 has posted for you. I think this is very good advice and will guide you in the right direction.