Free will in Buddhism

Zeron

I am writing a short paper on the issue of determinism and free will in Buddhism and I find myself in need of some assistance. Specifically, I need to reference sources that explain the freedom of choice in Buddhism. If anyone knows which sutras have discourse on this topic it would be very helpful. Or maybe some commentaries or writings by Buddhist thinkers.

Dharmakara

http://www.cattrang.org/study/freewillandresponsibility.htm

federica

Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; present actions shape not only the future but also the present. Furthermore, present actions need not be determined by past actions. In other words, there is free will, although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. The nature of this freedom is symbolized in an image used by the early Buddhists: flowing water. Sometimes the flow from the past is so strong that little can be done except to stand fast, but there are also times when the flow is gentle enough to be diverted in almost any direction.

from here

Victorious

Hi

I am surprised the first post was not this sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

Citation:
So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" — then you should abandon them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.

Cheers
Victor

Zeron

Thank you guys. That will certainly be useful. Though I was hoping for some more direct sources: Dhammapada, Nikayas, Asanga, Nagarjuna, Vasubandhu... Dalai Lama.
I lnow it is difficult to apply such western concepts as free will to buddhist thought, but it is possible to view these concepts from buddhist perspective. And there must be a way to anchor this perspective in buddhist texts. And this is what I am after.

Zeron

@Victorious
How does Kalama Sutra apply to the issue her?

Victorious

@Zeron

Patiance young grasshopper.

:ninja:

Read the commentary on this one too.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html

/Victor

Dharmakara

Hi

I am surprised the first post was not this sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

Hi Victor. Not sure I understand why the Kalama Sutta should have been the first to be posted.

Victorious

Because it is where our own judgement is put in the highest esteem in front of anything or anyone else.

The Individuals choice on how to practise and what to practise is the essential.

Total freedom to choose after our own will and understanding.

Am I misunderstanding your question?

/Victor

Victorious

Here is another one similar to the second link but better presented:


Citation from the commentary:

In the course of his Awakening, the Buddha discovered that the experience of the present moment consists of three factors: results from past actions, present actions, and the results of present actions. This means that kamma acts in feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; while present actions shape not only the present but also the future. This constant opening for present input into the causal processes shaping one's life makes free will possible. In fact, will — or intention — forms the essence of action.

Sabre

Bhikkhus, determinations is not-self. Were determinations self, then determinations would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of determinations: 'Let my determinations be thus, let my determinations be not thus.' And since determinations are not-self, so they leads to affliction, and none can have it of determinations : 'Let my determinations be thus, let my determinations be not thus.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html

There can be no 'free will' in the usual sense of the word (as in somebody choosing something freely) AND the concept of non-self existing together. Therefore there is no place for free will in Buddhism.

With metta,
Sabre

Cinorjer

Well, I'm not sure if free will as a concept is addressed in the sutras, but the attitude toward determinism (conditioned existence) varies from the extreme of the Karma Sutra, where pretty much everything is predetermined by past actions if you look hard enough and no detail is too small (You have dark skin? You slandered Buddha in a past life), to the Diamond Sutra, which waxes poetical about how insubstantial such conditioned links actually seem to be.

"So I say to you -
This is how to contemplate our conditioned existence in this fleeting world:"
"Like a tiny drop of dew, or a bubble floating in a stream;
Like a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
Or a flickering lamp, an illusion, a phantom, or a dream."
"So is all conditioned existence to be seen."
Thus spoke Buddha.

Jason

Buddhism doesn't really have an analogous concept akin to the Western conception of free will. That said, you can find suttas in the Pali Canon that support both causal determinism and the ability to make choices, however limited those choices may be. Check out this blog post for a few thoughts and references: "free will revisited: conventional vs. ultimate vs. pragmatic."

Dharmakara

Because it is where our own judgement is put in the highest esteem in front of anything or anyone else.

The Individuals choice on how to practise and what to practise is the essential.

Total freedom to choose after our own will and understanding.

Am I misunderstanding your question?

/Victor

What I was referring to was whether the question was about free will or actually about free inquiry, as reflected in the Kalama Sutta. The question was about free will, that Buddhists believe in neither absolute free will nor determinism, but pratitya-samutpada or inter-dependent arising.

In other words, the Kalama Sutta is the process we examine the question with, not the question itself.

Zeron

There can be no 'free will' in the usual sense of the word (as in somebody choosing something freely) AND the concept of non-self existing together. Therefore there is no place for free will in Buddhism.

With metta,
Sabre

You are right, but only in part: you are right that there is no free will "in the usual sense of the word", i.e. of an agent making a free choice. But determinism is also not accepted. What I'm trying to say is that there is free will in Buddhism (otherwise there would be no point in following the eight-fold path), but there is no agent (no self) making the choice. And this is the position I wanted to clarify.

Zeron

Thank you all!
There is plenty of information to process and I can already see that I will be able to use some of this in my paper.

Sabre

There can be no 'free will' in the usual sense of the word (as in somebody choosing something freely) AND the concept of non-self existing together. Therefore there is no place for free will in Buddhism.

With metta,
Sabre

You are right, but only in part: you are right that there is no free will "in the usual sense of the word", i.e. of an agent making a free choice. But determinism is also not accepted. What I'm trying to say is that there is free will in Buddhism (otherwise there would be no point in following the eight-fold path), but there is no agent (no self) making the choice. And this is the position I wanted to clarify.

If there is no determinism, that doesn't automatically mean there is free will. Determinism and free will are not opposites, as many people think they are.

But If I may ask: What do you mean by free will, than? And how does it imply that following the path has no use? If you have are ill, you will see a docter. It doesn't matter if you have a choice or not.

See also this thread here:
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/15194/free-will-vs-determinism/p1

With metta,
Sabre

Victorious

What I was referring to was whether the question was about free will or actually about free inquiry, as reflected in the Kalama Sutta. The question was about free will, that Buddhists believe in neither absolute free will nor determinism, but pratitya-samutpada or inter-dependent arising.

In other words, the Kalama Sutta is the process we examine the question with, not the question itself.

I do not think that is the only way to understand it. In religion and filosofy the question of free will is often taken to mean if a higher being/entity or principal has total control of destiny or not thus limiting the freedom of humans to more or less nothing.

In the kalamasutta your own choice of path is the essential. Thus it, in my ears, says that there are no such limiting bonds.

Well just a thought.

/Victor

Dharmakara

Hmmm... when it comes to the Kalama Sutta, wouldn't free inquiry be the essential?

driedleaf

Fate only binds those who are attached to the sense of self I would think.

Jeffrey

Fate and determinism are conceptual overlays onto suchness. The heisenberg uncertainty principle shows that we cannot establish both where a particle IS and how it is moving. And other pairs such as energy and time. Without being able to establish where things are now just how can we deduce that they are fated? There is a corresponding yogic experience in meditation/observation. We cannot find this very moment. Thus we cannot deduce a being as a stream of moments since we cannot find a single moment. We also cannot find a being or self and thus we cannot establish that any being has free will.

pegembara

Victorious

Hmmm... when it comes to the Kalama Sutta, wouldn't free inquiry be the essential?

You are right. Maybe I am looking to hard.

Thanks Dharmakara

Floating_Abu

For someone who is free from conditioning, are they free or not?

Best wishes
Abu

JohnG

I suggest, http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/zen-mind-beginners-mind-shunryu-suzuki/1100261054 and Zen in the Martial Arts by Joe Hyams. There pretty good and simple to understand. Which to me is the best reason . But, there is a point you should look at. Free will is choice, and the right mind to accept or reject; wheather it be philosophy, religion, or politics.

SeaOfTranquility

Free will lies in our reaction to whatever arises. And our reactions are conditioned by our previous karma.

If there was complete free will then I would only think happy thoughts. But that is not the case. All kinds of thoughts come up without any controlling agent (me) willing them to happen. But then they do not just come up randomly either. While they appear to just happen actually they arise as everything does, though dependent origination.

Planting the seeds, by reacting to whatever arises in the present moment, with wisdom, compassion, and acceptance, as much as possible, produces results latter.

Best Wishes

David

I don't see how free will could be anything more than the ability to effect change through our decisions.

If there is no free will then all is determined and we do not co-create.

We wanted to fly and we did. We just had to make us some extensions.

David

@JohnG;

I agree with you about the book by Joe Hyams. Being a fan of Bruce Lee, I rather enjoyed that.

Floating_Abu

If there was complete free will then I would only think happy thoughts. But that is not the case. All kinds of thoughts come up without any controlling agent (me) willing them to happen. But then they do not just come up randomly either. While they appear to just happen actually they arise as everything does, though dependent origination.

What about the peace of (genuine) no thought?

Sabre

How about the peace of no free will?

David

Being able to turn conscious thought off is very well and good but sometimes i enjoy thinking.

Also because this is all temporary anyways I figure it's good to explore and so as long as this illusory self is here I would find no peace without free will.