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... I guess what I find exasperating... (though not deeply..just enough to be cranky) is all the talk of "life is Zen" .. "All is Zen" " Zen is just this" etc. etc. ....well..... no shit Sherlock. Thanks for news flash. Yes ...doing homework with my kid.. playing role the dough and bake the buns with my adorable pooch... paying bills.. being happy.. being irritated.. being whatever.. all is as is.. two and not-two and two-again.. yadda yadda.. gag me with a lotus. That is reeeeally not news. BUT... there is something else. If you dispense with the Four Noble Truths, Refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha , The Bodhisattva vows, and the precepts.. and the practice and realization of these. ... that is fair enough.. whatever floats your boat.. unless you start proclaiming "real zen" with no experiential understanding of the full reality of the path... no idea at all.. and are just tossing out vapid zennisms .. it is going to get push back. So I would make just one very enlightened suggestion.. Instead of saying this is "real zen", just say this is "real zen to me"..
What a powerful wonderful enlightened thing... I am working on that one too.. but have pretentions.. it's rough.
Of course when I say 'this is real zen', of course I mean 'to me'
I thought that would have been clear, as everything in life is an opinion, (even buddhism, hence the different buddhist traditions)
But may I just add a little something else, when I say zen is this, zen is that, I've also said with a 'way' of thinking and being.. Not just 'playing with my dog is zen' its only zen if you 'understand' that playing with your dog 'is' 'it'.. With full awareness and understanding, life becomes completely different as to what it used to be... The book 'the power of now' is brilliant. And 'for me' it is very ZEN..
Also the novel 'siddhartha' by hermann hesse is very ZEN. The main character sets of to attain enlightenment and bumbs into the buddha himself but says his teachings cannot help him. Even though he's the buddha, he still can't help him attain true enlightenment.. Anyway, it ends with him realising that for 'him' enlightenment is 'just being' and not seeking. When he was 'seeking' throughout the book, he was suffering. Then eventually he finally just LIVED LIFE as it actually is...
enjoying each and every block of tetris is enlightenment
that makes me enlightened
Of course not. It's playing tetris. And sitting Zazen is just sitting zazen.
I don't like to even use the word enlightenment, because that has come to mean an altered state of consciousness. I prefer "being a Buddha".
If you want, there is Zen, and there is Zen Buddhism. Zen is direct, intuitive, mindful action. Zen Buddhism is taking that and applying it to your Buddhist practice.
there is Zen, and there is Zen Buddhism. Zen is direct, intuitive, mindful action. Zen Buddhism is taking that and applying it to your Buddhist practice.
Spot on! This is one of the best descriptions I think I have ever read. Simple, but zen is simple. Nice work!
... I guess what I find exasperating... (though not deeply..just enough to be cranky) is all the talk of "life is Zen" .. "All is Zen" " Zen is just this" etc. etc. ....well..... no shit Sherlock. Thanks for news flash. Yes ...doing homework with my kid.. playing role the dough and bake the buns with my adorable pooch... paying bills.. being happy.. being irritated.. being whatever.. all is as is.. two and not-two and two-again.. yadda yadda.. gag me with a lotus. That is reeeeally not news. BUT... there is something else. If you dispense with the Four Noble Truths, Refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha , The Bodhisattva vows, and the precepts.. and the practice and realization of these. ... that is fair enough.. whatever floats your boat.. unless you start proclaiming "real zen" with no experiential understanding of the full reality of the path... no idea at all.. and are just tossing out vapid zennisms .. it is going to get push back. So I would make just one very enlightened suggestion.. Instead of saying this is "real zen", just say this is "real zen to me"..
What a powerful wonderful enlightened thing... I am working on that one too.. but have pretentions.. it's rough.
Maybe zenmyste is just being stingy, like in the following zen story. Relax, grab a juice box, and read. I think you'll like it.
Stingy in Teaching
A young physician in Tokyo named Kusuda met a college friend who had been studying Zen. The young doctor asked him what Zen was.
"I cannot tell you what it is," the friend replied, "but one thing is certain. If you understand Zen, you will not be afraid to die."
"That's fine," said Kusuda. "I will try it. Where can I find a teacher?"
"Go to the master Nan-in," the friend told him.
So Kusuda went to call on Nan-in. He carried a dagger nine and a half inches long to determine whether or not the teacher was afraid to die.
When Nan-in saw Kusuda he exclaimed: "Hello, friend. How are you? We haven't seen each other for a long time!"
This perplexed Kusuda, who replied: "We have never met before."
"That's right," answered Nan-in. "I mistook you for another physician who is receiving instruction here."
With such a beginning, Kusuda lost his chance to test the master, so reluctantly he asked if he might receive Zen instruction.
Nan-in said: "Zen is not a difficult task. If you are a physician, treat you patients with kindness. That is Zen."
Kusuda visited Nan-in three times. Each time Nan-in told him the same thing. "A physician should not waste time around here. Go home and take care of you patients."
It was not yet clear to Kusuda how such teaching could remove the fear of death. So on his fourth visit he complained: "My friend told me when one learns Zen one loses the fear of death. Each time I come here all you tell me is to take care of my patients. I know that much. If that is your so-called Zen, I am not going to visit you any more."
Nan-in smiled and patted the doctor. "I have been too strict with you. Let me give you a koan." He presented Kusuda with Joshu's Mu to work over, which is the first mind enlightening problem in the book called The Gateless Gate.
Kusuda pondered this problem of Mu (No-Thing) for two years. At length he thought he had reached certainty of mind. But his teacher commented: "You are not in yet."
Kusuda continued in concentration for another year and a half. His mind became placid. Problems dissolved. No-Thing became the truth. He served his patients well and, without even knowing it, he was free from concern over life and death.
Then when he visited Nan-in, his old teacher just smiled.
enjoying each and every block of tetris is enlightenment
that makes me enlightened
Of course not. It's playing tetris. And sitting Zazen is just sitting zazen.
I don't like to even use the word enlightenment, because that has come to mean an altered state of consciousness. I prefer "being a Buddha".
If you want, there is Zen, and there is Zen Buddhism. Zen is direct, intuitive, mindful action. Zen Buddhism is taking that and applying it to your Buddhist practice.
the smiley indicates it's a joke...
it all is,
actually
especially discussions about personal perceptions like these.
Of course these things are zen.. Its just that you aint gonna get anywhere 'specific' by chanting, or meditating for that matter.
What a load of crock.
Are you trolling?
Have you seen any Zen teacher and practitioner over the ages who has not taught practice, zazen, walking meditation, koan practice, chanting etc. Who has not probably busted their guts for many years in devoted, and sometimes very hard, practice?
It's all well and good for you to say the things you do, but I sense a troll.
Of course these things are zen.. Its just that you aint gonna get anywhere 'specific' by chanting, or meditating for that matter.
Zen is also a 'way' of thinking and being. So once one realizes the zen way of 'being/thinking' he doesn't meditated or chant 'for' something. He only meditates because he wants to, or it brings calmness or stillness etc etc.. (Not because its zen-like to do so)
Just like bodhidharma said that there is 'no merit' for doing good. No merit for meditating, no merit for chanting. NO NOTHING!
That's the secret.. When people say 'just be' I also believe some people have got the wrong idea of it aswell.. 'Just be' is a 'way of thinking and being' knowing that there is no mystical feeling to life.. Therefore accepts his life as it is and finally starts to LIVE..
... but doing the practice supports everything else. And any Zen practitioner should figure out that there's nowhere to "go" anyway...
Of course these things are zen.. Its just that you aint gonna get anywhere 'specific' by chanting, or meditating for that matter.
What a load of crock.
Are you trolling?
Have you seen any Zen teacher and practitioner over the ages who has not taught practice, zazen, walking meditation, koan practice, chanting etc. Who has not probably busted their guts for many years in devoted, and sometimes very hard, practice?
It's all well and good for you to say the things you do, but I sense a troll.
[Famous Zen story]
''A monk was meditating in a field when the master walked up to him and asked 'why are you meditating? Are you trying to get something specific? The monk said ''yes, to become Enlightened!''. The master sat down and of all things, started to then polish a brick, with like a cloth. The monk asked 'what are you doing?'' The master said ''I am polishing this brick to make it a mirror''
The monk said 'Master, you aint gonna make a mirror out of brick by polishing it..
The master then replied ''And neither are you gonna become enlightened by meditating....
The actual koan version talks about Buddha, not enlightenment. And you forget to post the rest of it, or provide the actual meaning behind the story.
As it is the basic virtue and recognition of Zen Buddhism that we are all already Buddhas. All beings are Buddha, and we work hard to actualise this fundamental truth.
Here is the genuine koan for those who are interested and related commentary below --
Ch'an Master Nan-yueh Huai-jang, Abbot of the Po-je Temple, noticed a young man meditating in the main shrine every afternoon. Since the man seemed to possess Ch'an wisdom, Huai-jang asked him kindly, "My friend, what are you doing here?"
The young man obviously did not like being disturbed and reluctantly answered, "Sitting in meditation."
"Why are you sitting in meditation?" asked Huai-jang again.
Quite perturbed, he nevertheless replied, "To become a Buddha!"
The Master continued to pursue his questioning in a kind manner, "How can you become a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"
This time, the bound man ignored the question to show his disdain for the talkative old monk. Since Huai-jang could not attract the young man's attention by talking, he found a brick and began to rub it on the floor while sitting nearly. In the days that followed, whenever the bound man came to meditate. Master Nan-yueh would return to his task of rubbing the brick. Finally, the young man could no longer suppress his curiosity and inquired, "What are you doing here every day, if I may ask?"
"Polishing the brick." Huai-jang declared.
"Why?" he queried.
"To make it into a mirror," replied Huai-jang.
"How can you turn the brick into a mirror?" the young man asked.
"If the brick can't become a mirror by being polished, how can you become a Buddha by meditating?"
The young man was astounded by the response. This simple question completely rid him of his arrogance. He immediately stood up and prostrated himself respectfully before the Master, imploring, "What should I do?"
In reply, the Master asked him gently, "Let's say you're driving a cart. If it doesn't go forward, should you whip the cart or the ox?"
Upon hearing this, the young man prostrated again and then knelt down, saying, "Master, how can I be free from all bondage and attain nirvana?"
"Your study of the doctrines of the Buddha is like sowing seeds, while my expounding to you the essence of the Dharma is like sprinkling sweet dew on those seeds. When causes and conditions harmonize, you'll be awakened to the Path."
After hearing this, the young man became enlightened. Later, he became the famous Ch'an Master Ma-tsu Tao-i.
“Commenting on this story, Dogen gave an unconventional interpretation that was characteristic of his treatment of other koan stories as well. He contended that the story advocated not only the Zen dictum "Do not attempt to become a Buddha" (fuzu-sabutsu) but more important, the necessity of zazen undefiled. He wrote:
'Indeed we know that when a tile, as it is being polished, becomes a mirror, Ma-tsu becomes a Buddha. When Ma-tsu becomes a Buddha, Ma-tsu becomes Ma-tsu instantly. When Ma-tsu becomes Ma-tsu, zazen becomes zazen immediately. Therefore, the tradition of making a mirror by polishing a tile has been kept alive at the core of ancient Buddhas'.
In the activity of zazen undefiled, a tile and a mirror or Ma-tsu and Buddha are one, though not dissolved. Although the tile is not transformed into the mirror, the tile is the mirror; the act of polishing the tile itself unfolds the purity of the mirror. Consequently, zazen, likened to the act of polishing the tile in this case, is nothing less than the unfolding enactment of original enlightenment, or in other words the mirror" (pp. 67–68).
Here is the genuine koan for those who are interested and related commentary below -- ..........
Abu, There are many many versions. You cant come on here and say im a troll and look up the story on Google and then tell everyone yours is the 'genuine' koan.
The master was trying to show his student that polishing the brick on its surface only is the same as over polishing the actual technique of meditation, rather than actually, actually meditating.
Enlightenment is not something to be attained
And thats what i meant about meditating 'for' a specific thing..
My impression is that you seem to be misrepresenting things despite information to the contrary. That is a signal to me.
As to your story, I don't think you understood it at all -
It's one of the easiest Zen tales because the story is inherently clear: one cannot become a Buddha by sitting zazen because Buddhahood is intrinsic in each and every human being. This is the same for Dzogchen where they say rigpa is intrinsic for every person - it only needs to be recognised, if one can do so.
This does not negate the principle of practice - it never has. Its lesson is that one cannot become what one inherently is and all good Zen teachers will eventually point out that sitting is not the whole, but it is sure a heck of a lot of the capability training that each Zen students goes through to actualise what is inherent, and natural, in each and every one of them.
Let me give you an example. One can have musical capabilities and talents, but without the guidance of an expert teacher and a whole lot of practice, one cannot necessarily have those capabilities brought out, let alone evident. To one who does not practice, they can probably play a tune or two, but to imagine they are playing world class music is surely a bit of a stretch - and "Yo man everyone already is playing the music can't you hear? The birds are music, life is music, yo don't need no practice" is extremely uninformed, in my opinion.
I believe you misunderstood. Or alternatively are trolling.
As to what you say, I don't think you are misunderstood - I think you make yourself very clear. And you are trying to tell us to wake up and realise Zen is not just about sitting.
Thankyou, I can speak for myself when I say I definitely know that already, and I also know the inherent value and strength of zazen. Invaluable.
I also think you might be the one here who is trying to tell everyone what Zen is and what is real Zen or not -- it's a possibility.
But that is the talk that I am addressing.
I do not believe it is because you are some poor misunderstood Zen person at all and I hope you do not see it that way either because it is just not true.
Sorry to have offended you, but I liked the patronising git comment, I haven't received that one in a long time and appreciate the feedback.
I mean no disrespect to anyone, but much of what appears in this thread remind me of an appropriate story related to the concept of an empty vessel making the least noise:
One day Nan-in had a visit from a foreign scholar who was himself a specialist in Eastern religions. The scholar came to Nan-in to learn more about Zen Buddhism. Instead of listening to the master, however, the visiting scholar pontificated on and on about his own ideas and everything that he knew.
After a while of this endless talk, Nan-in decided to serve tea. He poured tea into his visitor’s cup until it was full. And then he kept on pouring. The tea began to flow over the sides of the cup, it filled the saucer, it spilled onto the man’s pants, and then it puddled all over the floor.
Finally the visitor spoke up and said, “Don’t you see that my cup’s full? You can’t get any more in!”
“Just so,” replied the Zen master, and at last he stopped pouring. “And like this cup, you are filled with your own ideas. How can you expect me to give you Zen unless you offer me an empty cup?”
I also apologise if I genuinely misunderstood you and therefore incorrectly called you a troll. I am sorry about that.
My comments about the practice are what I genuinely believe and have learnt. Speaking for ma'self, without practice, I would have lost my cool 10 years back. And that's the value of zazen in real life.
No patronising intended, just sharing a stubborn perspective. Thanks for your patience and understanding.
I think all this drama could've been easily avoided if @zenmyste just said "In my experience," or "In my opinion..." before his first few posts in this thread. Although @zenmyste, you would think that that's a given, it's not. When one makes statements without qualifying them as one's own opinion, it sounds like one is making blanket, objective claims that should be universally true.
That's why you're getting a lot of flak, I think.
However, I think you are also oversimplifying when you say how zazen "isn't Zen" or this and that "isn't Zen." The practice supports everything else. Why the hell would Zen monks promote zazen if it was completely useless and all you had to do was intellectually "know" that Zen is _____ ?
Truth be told, if you gathered all the various "masters" of Ch'an/Zen and then locked them in a room for the night to discuss their personal understanding of practice, I suspect very few would make it out alive LOL
Truth be told, if you gathered all the various "masters" of Ch'an/Zen and then locked them in a room for the night to discuss their personal understanding of practice, I suspect very few would make it out alive LOL
Jack Cornfield wrote a book called a path with heart. Because there is a heart to zazen of overcoming suffering, then definitively it is the path. We all wish to be happy and as Buddha said, "I teach nothing but the relief of suffering."
Truth be told, if you gathered all the various "masters" of Ch'an/Zen and then locked them in a room for the night to discuss their personal understanding of practice, I suspect very few would make it out alive LOL
Amen. When reading this thread, the thing I believe two well meaning followers of Zen didn't take into account is that for each of them, they were correct. Heck, each of our great Zen Masters with their stories and koans passed down reinterpreted and disagreed over what is the proper focus of Zen practice and how to describe the non-goal. That was how we ended up with a handful of schools of Zen instead of one, with one orthodoxy.
Master Lin-chi taught proper practice is to simply be an ordinary person doing nothing in particular. Master Ma-tsu taught enlightenment is your ordinary, everyday mind. Master Ta-chu went further and taught that for you to seek Buddha-nature is as unnecessary as the Buddha seeking the Buddha. Our ordinary mind is already Buddha mind.
Does that mean there is nothing to do and nothing to achieve, that we should all shrug our shoulders and get on with making the people around us miserable with our anger and desires? Is that Zen? Of course not. Every one of these Masters lived a life of meditation and taught a life of discipline and meditation. And yet, they felt the need to remind us over and over again that sitting in meditation is not the goal, and not some magic activity that transforms us just because we learned how to count our breaths.
Let me give my own understanding of the koan of the polished tile, while pointing out this is not the "correct" understanding. Only my own understanding.
The second question this Master Nan-yueh asked is the key to the koan. He asked a second question, about an ox pulling a cart, with you as the driver. He asked, if the cart is not moving, do you whip the cart or the ox? Now, the Ox is an ancient Zen metaphor for our original mind. These monks would have be familiar with that. If any statement in Zen refers to an Ox, you know it's our mind.
Being tied to the cart shows you have progressed to the point where you have tamed the Ox. You have shackled the Ox to the cart, meaning you have used the disciplined practice of Zen meditation and Dharma study to quiet the wild behavior of the mind. This is sitting Zazen. So where do you go from here? The Ox and cart are not moving. You've mastered the meditation practice. You can stare at that wall all day with an still, empty mind. Yet, you aren't enlightened. You still don't "get it".
So, sitting there in that cart with the whip, do you meditate longer (whip the cart) or force your mind to do something (whip the Ox). Or maybe, sitting in the cart is the problem. It's just a metaphor, you know. The Ox is you.
How do you get the Ox and cart to start moving? You start walking.
Master Lin-chi taught proper practice is to simply be an ordinary person doing nothing in particular. Master Ma-tsu taught enlightenment is your ordinary, everyday mind. Master Ta-chu went further and taught that for you to seek Buddha-nature is as unnecessary as the Buddha seeking the Buddha. Our ordinary mind is already Buddha mind.
These guys were hard core, dude. Don't misunderstand their understandings which they achieved after long practice
And more seriously, Dzogchen says the same, same with Ajahn Sumedho, all genuine Buddhist teachers have the same insights. Zen is easily misunderstood, and what everyone is often lacking is context. These were usually serious monk dudes who lived and breathed monastery life. For them sitting was already part of everything. And they needed to teach to the audience.
To take modern interpretations and spin is a dangerous slant on it IMO.
Truth be told, if you gathered all the various "masters" of Ch'an/Zen and then locked them in a room for the night to discuss their personal understanding of practice, I suspect very few would make it out alive LOL
Describing Zen & bordom...Thanks Brad...Great topic.
I think zen is too fluid to be reduced to a static description. It's like trying to describe a small patch of the surface of a stream. Before we tap a key stroke, it's already changed. The most valuable thing one usually sees in trying to pin down Zen is not its quantification but just how ethereal our relationship with reality can be.
For me bordom is just whatever I'm not prepared to be fully open to. For a zafu pilot, willing to traverse beyond ones comfort zone, it's a great course heading.
Comments
What a powerful wonderful enlightened thing... I am working on that one too.. but have pretentions.. it's rough.
Of course when I say 'this is real zen', of course I mean 'to me'
I thought that would have been clear, as everything in life is an opinion, (even buddhism, hence the different buddhist traditions)
But may I just add a little something else, when I say zen is this, zen is that, I've also said with a 'way' of thinking and being..
Not just 'playing with my dog is zen' its only zen if you 'understand' that playing with your dog 'is' 'it'.. With full awareness and understanding, life becomes completely different as to what it used to be...
The book 'the power of now' is brilliant. And 'for me' it is very ZEN..
Also the novel 'siddhartha' by hermann hesse is very ZEN.
The main character sets of to attain enlightenment and bumbs into the buddha himself but says his teachings cannot help him.
Even though he's the buddha, he still can't help him attain true enlightenment.. Anyway, it ends with him realising that for 'him' enlightenment is 'just being' and not seeking. When he was 'seeking' throughout the book, he was suffering. Then eventually he finally just LIVED LIFE as it actually is...
Very zen if you ask me.. (But only if you ask ME)
Sorry again for being clearer in my posts..
Namaste!
I don't like to even use the word enlightenment, because that has come to mean an altered state of consciousness. I prefer "being a Buddha".
If you want, there is Zen, and there is Zen Buddhism. Zen is direct, intuitive, mindful action. Zen Buddhism is taking that and applying it to your Buddhist practice.
Simple, but zen is simple.
Nice work!
Stingy in Teaching
A young physician in Tokyo named Kusuda met a college friend who had been studying Zen. The young doctor asked him what Zen was.
"I cannot tell you what it is," the friend replied, "but one thing is certain. If you understand Zen, you will not be afraid to die."
"That's fine," said Kusuda. "I will try it. Where can I find a teacher?"
"Go to the master Nan-in," the friend told him.
So Kusuda went to call on Nan-in. He carried a dagger nine and a half inches long to determine whether or not the teacher was afraid to die.
When Nan-in saw Kusuda he exclaimed: "Hello, friend. How are you? We haven't seen each other for a long time!"
This perplexed Kusuda, who replied: "We have never met before."
"That's right," answered Nan-in. "I mistook you for another physician who is receiving instruction here."
With such a beginning, Kusuda lost his chance to test the master, so reluctantly he asked if he might receive Zen instruction.
Nan-in said: "Zen is not a difficult task. If you are a physician, treat you patients with kindness. That is Zen."
Kusuda visited Nan-in three times. Each time Nan-in told him the same thing. "A physician should not waste time around here. Go home and take care of you patients."
It was not yet clear to Kusuda how such teaching could remove the fear of death. So on his fourth visit he complained: "My friend told me when one learns Zen one loses the fear of death. Each time I come here all you tell me is to take care of my patients. I know that much. If that is your so-called Zen, I am not going to visit you any more."
Nan-in smiled and patted the doctor. "I have been too strict with you. Let me give you a koan." He presented Kusuda with Joshu's Mu to work over, which is the first mind enlightening problem in the book called The Gateless Gate.
Kusuda pondered this problem of Mu (No-Thing) for two years. At length he thought he had reached certainty of mind. But his teacher commented: "You are not in yet."
Kusuda continued in concentration for another year and a half. His mind became placid. Problems dissolved. No-Thing became the truth. He served his patients well and, without even knowing it, he was free from concern over life and death.
Then when he visited Nan-in, his old teacher just smiled.
it all is,
actually
especially discussions about personal perceptions like these.
I finished my morning meditation.
Time to go and play tetris some more.
Are you trolling?
Have you seen any Zen teacher and practitioner over the ages who has not taught practice, zazen, walking meditation, koan practice, chanting etc. Who has not probably busted their guts for many years in devoted, and sometimes very hard, practice?
It's all well and good for you to say the things you do, but I sense a troll.
''A monk was meditating in a field when the master walked up to him and asked 'why are you meditating? Are you trying to get something specific? The monk said ''yes, to become Enlightened!''. The master sat down and of all things, started to then polish a brick, with like a cloth.
The monk asked 'what are you doing?''
The master said ''I am polishing this brick to make it a mirror''
The monk said 'Master, you aint gonna make a mirror out of brick by polishing it..
The master then replied ''And neither are you gonna become enlightened by meditating....
The actual koan version talks about Buddha, not enlightenment. And you forget to post the rest of it, or provide the actual meaning behind the story.
As it is the basic virtue and recognition of Zen Buddhism that we are all already Buddhas. All beings are Buddha, and we work hard to actualise this fundamental truth.
Here is the genuine koan for those who are interested and related commentary below -- And Dogen on this koan:
Too bad for zenmyste's complete misrepresentation
I believe that is wrong speach to call someone trolling. This is despite my enjoyment of talking with you.
Regards.
As to your story, I don't think you understood it at all -
It's one of the easiest Zen tales because the story is inherently clear: one cannot become a Buddha by sitting zazen because Buddhahood is intrinsic in each and every human being. This is the same for Dzogchen where they say rigpa is intrinsic for every person - it only needs to be recognised, if one can do so.
This does not negate the principle of practice - it never has. Its lesson is that one cannot become what one inherently is and all good Zen teachers will eventually point out that sitting is not the whole, but it is sure a heck of a lot of the capability training that each Zen students goes through to actualise what is inherent, and natural, in each and every one of them.
Let me give you an example. One can have musical capabilities and talents, but without the guidance of an expert teacher and a whole lot of practice, one cannot necessarily have those capabilities brought out, let alone evident. To one who does not practice, they can probably play a tune or two, but to imagine they are playing world class music is surely a bit of a stretch - and "Yo man everyone already is playing the music can't you hear? The birds are music, life is music, yo don't need no practice" is extremely uninformed, in my opinion.
I believe you misunderstood. Or alternatively are trolling.
Best wishes,
Abu
Peace,
Abu
I am not great at explaining myself, especially what is in my head. But im OK with you assuming that I dont understand Zen properly.
My Teacher has told me in the past, 'If you jump on the Zen path, be prepared to be misunderstood by others..'
He also used to say ''One who tries to explain Zen, hasnt got a frickin clue about what Zen actually is..'
I fully understand that now. I aint even gonna bother any more.
Zen is something one just 'understands' and not necessarily something that one can 'teach' easily..
The minute you open your mouth to talk about understand ZEN, people will just hear Jibberish..
Anyway, my apologize.
I definitely aint trolling. trust me, ive got better things to do!
Interesting
As to what you say, I don't think you are misunderstood - I think you make yourself very clear. And you are trying to tell us to wake up and realise Zen is not just about sitting.
Thankyou, I can speak for myself when I say I definitely know that already, and I also know the inherent value and strength of zazen. Invaluable.
I also think you might be the one here who is trying to tell everyone what Zen is and what is real Zen or not -- it's a possibility.
But that is the talk that I am addressing.
I do not believe it is because you are some poor misunderstood Zen person at all and I hope you do not see it that way either because it is just not true.
Sorry to have offended you, but I liked the patronising git comment, I haven't received that one in a long time and appreciate the feedback.
Best wishes,
Abu
:om:
Abu
One day Nan-in had a visit from a foreign scholar who was himself a specialist in Eastern religions. The scholar came to Nan-in to learn more about Zen Buddhism. Instead of listening to the master, however, the visiting scholar pontificated on and on about his own ideas and everything that he knew.
After a while of this endless talk, Nan-in decided to serve tea. He poured tea into his visitor’s cup until it was full. And then he kept on pouring. The tea began to flow over the sides of the cup, it filled the saucer, it spilled onto the man’s pants, and then it puddled all over the floor.
Finally the visitor spoke up and said, “Don’t you see that my cup’s full? You can’t get any more in!”
“Just so,” replied the Zen master, and at last he stopped pouring. “And like this cup, you are filled with your own ideas. How can you expect me to give you Zen unless you offer me an empty cup?”
I aint a troll.
I try to promote goodness.
I dont like to quarrel with people.
So i apologize.
(the patronizing git remark was wrong and bad of me, (even if you 'did' intend to be patronizing towards me)
Either way, i still shouldnt have called you that. i thought i was cooler than that.
All the best to you.
All the best to everyone.
I also apologise if I genuinely misunderstood you and therefore incorrectly called you a troll. I am sorry about that.
My comments about the practice are what I genuinely believe and have learnt. Speaking for ma'self, without practice, I would have lost my cool 10 years back. And that's the value of zazen in real life.
No patronising intended, just sharing a stubborn perspective.
Thanks for your patience and understanding.
Best wishes, and well wishes,
Abu
That's why you're getting a lot of flak, I think.
However, I think you are also oversimplifying when you say how zazen "isn't Zen" or this and that "isn't Zen." The practice supports everything else. Why the hell would Zen monks promote zazen if it was completely useless and all you had to do was intellectually "know" that Zen is _____ ?
*looks up from his game of tetris*
*sighs*
*smiles*
*returns to playing tetris*
Master Lin-chi taught proper practice is to simply be an ordinary person doing nothing in particular. Master Ma-tsu taught enlightenment is your ordinary, everyday mind. Master Ta-chu went further and taught that for you to seek Buddha-nature is as unnecessary as the Buddha seeking the Buddha. Our ordinary mind is already Buddha mind.
Does that mean there is nothing to do and nothing to achieve, that we should all shrug our shoulders and get on with making the people around us miserable with our anger and desires? Is that Zen? Of course not. Every one of these Masters lived a life of meditation and taught a life of discipline and meditation. And yet, they felt the need to remind us over and over again that sitting in meditation is not the goal, and not some magic activity that transforms us just because we learned how to count our breaths.
Let me give my own understanding of the koan of the polished tile, while pointing out this is not the "correct" understanding. Only my own understanding.
The second question this Master Nan-yueh asked is the key to the koan. He asked a second question, about an ox pulling a cart, with you as the driver. He asked, if the cart is not moving, do you whip the cart or the ox? Now, the Ox is an ancient Zen metaphor for our original mind. These monks would have be familiar with that. If any statement in Zen refers to an Ox, you know it's our mind.
Being tied to the cart shows you have progressed to the point where you have tamed the Ox. You have shackled the Ox to the cart, meaning you have used the disciplined practice of Zen meditation and Dharma study to quiet the wild behavior of the mind. This is sitting Zazen. So where do you go from here? The Ox and cart are not moving. You've mastered the meditation practice. You can stare at that wall all day with an still, empty mind. Yet, you aren't enlightened. You still don't "get it".
So, sitting there in that cart with the whip, do you meditate longer (whip the cart) or force your mind to do something (whip the Ox). Or maybe, sitting in the cart is the problem. It's just a metaphor, you know. The Ox is you.
How do you get the Ox and cart to start moving? You start walking.
Oi!
Bodhisattva vows, dude
You don't get out that easily
All kamma is shared at the end of the day
:buck:
And more seriously, Dzogchen says the same, same with Ajahn Sumedho, all genuine Buddhist teachers have the same insights. Zen is easily misunderstood, and what everyone is often lacking is context. These were usually serious monk dudes who lived and breathed monastery life. For them sitting was already part of everything. And they needed to teach to the audience.
To take modern interpretations and spin is a dangerous slant on it IMO.
And now back to the regular programme ... :wave:
_/\_
I think zen is too fluid to be reduced to a static description. It's like trying to describe a small patch of the surface of a stream. Before we tap a key stroke, it's already changed. The most valuable thing one usually sees in trying to pin down Zen is not its quantification but just how ethereal our relationship with reality can be.
For me bordom is just whatever I'm not prepared to be fully open to. For a zafu pilot, willing to traverse beyond ones comfort zone, it's a great course heading.