Couple of questions for a beginner

GuyH

Hello,

I've been interested in Buddhism for about 15 years but am starting to get more seriously into it now. However I'm not quite sure if I understand a couple of points and seem to keep reaching paradoxes in my thinking:

1. I was reading about a Buddhist monk's story of how his mind was focused on the now and that was when he was diagnosed with a metastatic cancer told he had to undergo chemotherapy otherwise he would have weeks to live (in fact this is in Steve Hagen's 'Buddhism plain and simple'). Now I'm not suggesting that we should stop living but could it be argued that a 'Buddhist' thing to do would be just to let the cancer take it's course - surely opting for chemotherapy implies attachment to and a longing for something (in this case life) and avoidance of pain and suffering (barring the argument of course that chemotherapy is pain and suffering!). To me this seems silly, and I was wondering if someone who knows more than me about these things could explain this paradox?

2. How can Buddhism be reconciled with a desire to be good at your work and enjoy doing things with friends and family, etc, surely this again is attachment to temporary things? Although again Buddhist websites that I've looked at suggest this is fine and give the example of people like Steve Jobs being Buddhist, but again I don't quite understand it. Or is it to do with 'middle ground' and avoiding unhealty attachments, etc?

I'm grateful for any replies, I may have got the wrong end of the stick but find it difficult to progress in Buddhism with these questions.

Jason

1. I was reading about a Buddhist monk's story of how his mind was focused on the now and that was when he was diagnosed with a metastatic cancer told he had to undergo chemotherapy otherwise he would have weeks to live (in fact this is in Steve Hagen's 'Buddhism plain and simple'). Now I'm not suggesting that we should stop living but could it be argued that a 'Buddhist' thing to do would be just to let the cancer take it's course - surely opting for chemotherapy implies attachment to and a longing for something (in this case life) and avoidance of pain and suffering (barring the argument of course that chemotherapy is pain and suffering!). To me this seems silly, and I was wondering if someone who knows more than me about these things could explain this paradox?

I don't see the paradox. What's not 'Buddhist' about treating an illness? The Buddha himself approached the problem of mental stress and suffering like a doctor, formulating the four noble truths in the same way that ancient Indian physicians formulated medical diagnoses, i.e., disease (stress), cause (craving), prognosis (a cure/cessation of craving is possible) and treatment (the noble eightfold path). Why would treating physical illnesses be any different?

2. How can Buddhism be reconciled with a desire to be good at your work and enjoy doing things with friends and family, etc, surely this again is attachment to temporary things? Although again Buddhist websites that I've looked at suggest this is fine and give the example of people like Steve Jobs being Buddhist, but again I don't quite understand it. Or is it to do with 'middle ground' and avoiding unhealty attachments, etc?

Perhaps you'll benefit from reading these three excerpts from the Pali Canon, which are directed more towards lay-followers:

The Sigalovada Sutta

The Adiya Sutta

The Dighajanu Sutta

It should be noted that nowhere does the Buddha ever tell his lay-followers not to wish for success or happiness. What he does do, however, is give the lay-person a set of guidelines for living in a morally skillful and prosperous way. Not all desires are bad. Certain desires, like that of wanting to follow the noble eightfold path, for example, are actually part of the path itself.

The advice the Buddha gives is to try to not be attached to these worldly gains, not forsake them altogether; and there are numerous techniques and practices throughout the Canon designed to help one develop non-attachment while still living a 'worldly' life.

Many people mistake the Buddha's teachings as meaning they must give up everything they own, or refrain from being successful. This isn't true, however. While monastics are required to relinquish their possessions, lay-followers aren't. They're simply taught specific conducts that are in line with the Dhamma, and a business is no different. The truth is, if the accumulation of wealth is used (and accumulated) in the right way, it can be meritous! As he advised the wealthy lay-devotee Anathapindika:

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — provides himself with pleasure & satisfaction, and maintains that pleasure rightly. He provides his mother & father with pleasure & satisfaction, and maintains that pleasure rightly. He provides his children, his wife, his slaves, servants, & assistants with pleasure & satisfaction, and maintains that pleasure rightly. This is the first benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — provides his friends & associates with pleasure & satisfaction, and maintains that pleasure rightly. This is the second benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — wards off from calamities coming from fire, flood, kings, thieves, or hateful heirs, and keeps himself safe. This is the third benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — performs the five oblations: to relatives, guests, the dead, kings, & devas. This is the fourth benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — institutes offerings of supreme aim, heavenly, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, given to priests & contemplatives who abstain from intoxication & heedlessness, who endure all things with patience & humility, each taming himself, each restraining himself, each taking himself to Unbinding. This is the fifth benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"If it so happens that, when a disciple of the noble ones obtains these five benefits from wealth, his wealth goes to depletion, the thought occurs to him, 'Even though my wealth has gone to depletion, I have obtained the five benefits that can be obtained from wealth,' and he feels no remorse. If it so happens that, when a disciple of the noble ones obtains these five benefits from wealth, his wealth increases, the thought occurs to him, 'I have obtained the five benefits that can be obtained from wealth, and my wealth has increased,' and he feels no remorse. So he feels no remorse in either case."

PrairieGhost

Hi, Guyh

could it be argued that a 'Buddhist' thing to do would be just to let the cancer take it's course

Or to let the cancer and the treatment take their course, without clinging. If non-clinging meant disdain for life, Buddhas would neglect to breathe.

Jason

Hi, Guyh

could it be argued that a 'Buddhist' thing to do would be just to let the cancer take it's course

Or to let the cancer and the treatment take their course, without clinging. If non-clinging meant disdain for life, Buddhas would neglect to breathe.

I like that.

PrairieGhost

Hmm, I think it sounded a bit preachy.

Sabre

Hi GuyH!

Welcome to the board. I hope you can find in Buddhism what you are looking for. Here are some words that came into mind:

Letting go doesn't mean giving up on life. In Buddhism everything is grounded upon wise view, so we let go of the right things. Change things that you can change, and let go of the rest. For example, when your house is on fire, you will want to put the fire out. This is only logical. And if you fail to put the fire out, because Buddhism teaches not to cling to posessions, it shouldn't be too bad. In the same way, when the body is sick, you do what you reasonably can to make it healty again.

About the second question, again things should be done wisely. (That's why the first factor of the path is "right view") Letting go of desires doesn't mean letting go of all desires. It means letting go of desires that hurt us and others; desires that bring no happiness. The desires to bring happiness, to share, to cultivate peace etc. are all desires that we should keep.

The desire to be good at your job can be wisely investigated. Why do you want to be good? Is it to show off, get a good status? That wouldn't be too wise. Or is it to make your boss and the customers happy? Or to earn money to support yourself and maybe a family? Than it's great.

With loving kindness,
Sabre

Jason

Hmm, I think it sounded a bit preachy.

It makes an important point, though. Buddhism isn't about disdaining/giving up on life; it's about living a happier one.

Cinorjer

Hello @GuyH and welcome to the discussion.

Let's see if we can clear up a couple of issues you mention. Actually, those are pretty common questions when someone starts digging into what a Buddhist practice really is.

First about the life saving treatment. In one way or another, we're going to talk about how Buddhism has at its core something called the Middle Way. That means we neither cling to nor reject life and all it has to offer. Death comes to us all eventually, and so does sickness and old age and physical suffering. What the Middle Way does is preach keeping your focus on what makes life worth living this moment.

Second, we have the usual problem with language and how words can have a narrow and broad meaning. Your life is full of relationships and responsibilities. You see the word "attachment" and wonder if a Buddhist practice means cutting yourself off from the people you love, from the career you're building, etc? Even monks have lives filled with relationships and responsibilities. I'd say substitute the more accurate word "clinging" for attachment. There are people for who have a rewarding career, and people who cling to some ideal of success and let it consume their life. Does this begin to illustrate the difference?

PrairieGhost

Hi again Sabre

Letting go of desires doesn't mean letting go of all desires

It means recognising that what appear to the mind as desires, are not in fact desires at all. That includes 'good' desires. There is no duality between will and appearances. When you think 'I want', that's just another perception - there's no self to want anything. e.g. one thinks 'I am thirsty', but thirst is just a conventional label for a number of sensations including dryness of mouth, the thought of water.

PrairieGhost

Jason:

It makes an important point, though. Buddhism isn't about disdaining/giving up on life; it's about living a happier one.

Haha, I was half joking. It's that pseudo severe/precise tone that you get from western internet Buddhists, at times myself included, that has become rather wearisome to me.

Sabre

Hi again Sabre

Letting go of desires doesn't mean letting go of all desires

It means recognising that what appear to the mind as desires, are not in fact desires at all. That includes 'good' desires. There is no duality between will and appearances. When you think 'I want', that's just another perception - there's no self to want anything. e.g. one thinks 'I am thirsty', but thirst is just a conventional label for a number of sensations including dryness of mouth, the thought of water.

Hi hi,

Desires are there, even if there is no-self to experience them. It's not like we are robots without any emotional drive. But it's a bit off-topic. Also, perhaps a bit too deep, especially in a beginner's thread.

Metta!

PrairieGhost

I think it's exactly on topic, why someone would be desireless but care for their body. Desires are not there, in the sense of wanting things to be different. How could appearance desire?

Things still happen, we still go to the doctor if ill, but it is understood that there is no self originated motivation for action.

Beginner's thread, yes, but the O.P. has been interested in Buddhism for 15 years, so it might be useful to him.

GuyH

Thankyou everybody for taking the time to write in with your comments.

Feel a bit more reassured now and able to have better insights into what Buddhism is about and progress. Very happy to have views that may move beyond the 'beginner', I guess the mind needs to be stretched sometimes!

Guy

mfranzdorf

@Sabre @PrarieGhost
So eloquent, and precisely on target are your explanations. I enjoy your insight(s).

Jeffrey

Renunciation is only a part of Buddhism. And it just means that you let go of sense pleasures. I can't get my mind around this either. My lama says that as you let go of pleasure the result is that the intensity of the pleasure increases. Have you ever gone off coffee or something and then when you come back it is so pleasurable? Ok now that is the brain view the drug thing. But the buddhist view is that as sense pleasures are let go of we feel more and more joy. So you are never sacrificing anything of worth. The grasping never had any benefit.

sndymorn

Very nice thread