More Self Immolations

ThailandTom

It has happened again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18231550

Dakini

I don't know what good these acts are going to do. I don't see it changing anything for the better.

ThailandTom

I don't know what good these acts are going to do. I don't see it changing anything for the better.

Neither do I, as if they are going to care about Tibetan monks killing themselves, they ravaged their land before so how is this going to make them rethink everything...

Cinorjer

It won't change anything. What do they expect the Chinese to do, suddenly appologize and declare Tibet independent again? Of course they won't do that. And do they expect the world to go to war with China over Tibet, or start imposing trade sanctions on a huge part of the world's economy? Ain't gonna happen.

It always disturbs me that the Dalai Lama doesn't speak out forcefully against the monks doing this, and instead his spokesman claimed it's all the fault of the Chinese forcing the monks to do this.

Floating_Abu

It always disturbs me that the Dalai Lama doesn't speak out forcefully against the monks doing this, and instead his spokesman claimed it's all the fault of the Chinese forcing the monks to do this.

A good point, Cinorjer.

I heard him talk the other day, he preached non violence, and the speaker after him then started with "China DOWN DOWN DOWN"

It was all very odd. And incredibly sad.

Namaste.

Floating_Abu

The news is very sad. But the world is based on nothing else but a chain of greed, hatred, and ignorance. Delusion runs deep and without clarifying our own role and issues, it will be hard to be of genuine benefit to this world, IMO.

Best wishes,
Abu

mithril

Pārājika — Rules entailing expulsion from the Sangha (Defeat):

3. Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying,): "My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life," or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/vin/sv/bhikkhu-pati.html#pr]

caz

I spoke to a monk recently about this. Lets just say he was more under the Influence of Tibetan Nationalism rather then Dharma ethics.

Dakini

I spoke to a monk recently about this. Lets just say he was more under the Influence of Tibetan Nationalism rather then Dharma ethics.

Hm, good point. This is nationalism taken to an extreme.
What's unusual is that all the monks and nuns self-immolating are young, some in their teens. Why would the phenomenon be age-specific like that, I wonder?

Cinorjer

I spoke to a monk recently about this. Lets just say he was more under the Influence of Tibetan Nationalism rather then Dharma ethics.

Hm, good point. This is nationalism taken to an extreme.
What's unusual is that all the monks and nuns self-immolating are young, some in their teens. Why would the phenomenon be age-specific like that, I wonder?

I wonder how long these young men have been monks, and if they came from a particular temple, etc. Given the Chinese political mindset, I doubt much information is available.

Dakini

I found an article by a Japanese reporter who'd been to the area where most of the self-immolators are from , but it seemed like a biased article. He wrote that due to Chinese investment, the area is prosperous (this is a rural herding area--can't imagine how it could be prosperous), so the young monks committing suicide must be doing so because they're depressed. They were given to the monastery as kids, and had a rough time of it. That was the guy's theory. Otherwise, he said, why would young people end their life at a time when it's possible to go to Dharamsala to study, and the opportunities for monks are more than ever before? I haven't heard of the Chinese allowing young monks to go to Dharamsala to study for a couple of years, though. Who would pay for that, even if it were allowed?

It's a mystery. During the Vietnam War, it was older monks who chose this form of protest, wasn't it? Anyway, it's hard to believe anyone's report from China these days, you never know who has what kind of agenda. The Japanese reporter has a history of publishing pro-Chinese work, and has taught at a university in China.

All the self-immolators have been monastics, several from the same temple and region. Well, except for these new cases in Lhasa.

white_wolf

This whole situation is messed up. I don't even know what China has gained by taking Tibet. It has no resources that I'm aware of. I know their justification was freeing the peasantry from a feudal theocracy, but while I do have issues with how Tibet was ruled before China invaded, China still had no right to invade and they haven't made things any better for the average person. It's the same argument I hear in the U.S. about the Afgan and Iraq wars being about freeing people from tyranny. I won't accept it from my own government and I won't accept it from China. I could go on, but I'm about to on a rant about what a horrible excuse for a socialist Mao was and no one wants to hear that.

As for self-immolation, it sucks, but I fear it's all in vain. I don't see this getting anything done.

So I'll just leave with a question. Does anyone know what China is gaining from being in Tibet? Is there really anything there?

federica

There are mineral resources in them thar hills.....

Cinorjer

@white_wolf take a look at the map. Tibet has always been a buffer state between empires. It has India on one side and China on the other side of its mountains. It's all about security for the Chinese borders. In the event China and India ever end up in conflict, control of those mountain passes is crucial. In the global push and shove of nations, poor Tibet is destined to be fought over.

Sile

I think that given most suicides are monks and nuns, we can't overlook the government's action which preceded the suicides, which was (and continues to be) a massive and escalating crackdown on clergy including mass arrests, beatings, kidnappings, and certainly killings. This is on top of the already suffocating conditions imposed on the people's daily work and study.

"During the Nazi dictatorship, thousands of Jews throughout Germany took their own lives to avoid an unknown fate that lay before them." (European Jewish Press)

As this crackdown continues to worsen, and as it is clearly being extended now to laypeople, I'm afraid we can expect to see more suicides among not only the clergy, but the general population.

I predict that history will eventually judge Zhou Yongkang as one of the Goebbels of his time.

Floating_Abu

I like Cinjorjer's point - why do their leaders not tell them to stop.

Sile

A book very relevant to our discussion:

Suicides of German Jews, 1933–1945

Christian Goeschel

In the Third Reich, suicide became a routine phenomenon among German Jews. This chapter concentrates on Nazi Germany, but also goes beyond the confines of the Third Reich: to exile, to Auschwitz, and to later times. It focuses on German-Jewish suicides during the Third Reich and analyses the links between Nazi racial policy and German-Jewish suicides. There is a rich literature on the suicides of prominent Holocaust survivors, such as Paul Celan, Primo Levi, and Bruno Bettelheim, who killed themselves decades after the final solution. This chapter primarily concerns the social and political context of German-Jewish suicides and their individual motives, using hitherto neglected archival sources, including suicide notes of German Jews. It also asks how far, if at all, Jewish suicide was a form of resistance towards Nazism, or how far, on the other hand, it was an act of despair and hopelessness.

___

BIBLIOGRAPHIC INFORMATION
Print publication date: 2009 Print ISBN-13: 9780199532568
Published to Oxford Scholarship Online: October 2011 DOI:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199532568.001.0001

Floating_Abu

It is an act of despair, desperation, anger, hurt, helplessness. It is very sad to see these young people burn themself like this.

_/\_

vinlyn

Perhaps they should not cling to nationhood.

Floating_Abu

vinlyn

To not be able to empathise would be very sad IMO. I imagine it is very hard for them not because of clinging necessarily, but because it is a hard environment to be in. This is my assumption anyway and I suppose these self immolations are a symptom of that.

I do wonder though why their leaders do not urge them in different ways, but perhaps I do not know enough about the intricacies and difficulties of the whole situation.

_/\_

BonsaiDoug

There are mineral resources in them thar hills.....

Correct-a-mundo!

From the 'Net:

Tibet boasts the largest reserves of chromite in China, covering a total area of 2,500 sq m (965 sq miles) and totaling approximately to 10 million tons. Meanwhile, in 1999 an abundance of lithium carbonate was discovered and the Zabuye Salt Lake in the Shigatse Region has become not only the largest lithium base in China but the world's second richest salt lake brine resource. So far over 100 varieties of mineral have been found in Tibet, 11 of which, including conundrum, copper, boron and isinglass, etc., rank as the national top five reserves. The potential for other minerals such as gold, silver, lead and zinc is prospected.

Being one of China's biggest forest areas, Tibet maintains primeval forest intactness with a total forest area of 126,583 square kilometers. Forest accumulation stands at 2.08 billion cubic meters, ranking second in the country, and forest coverage stands at 9.8%.

Except for the economic plants in use of making fabrics, spices, food and paper, etc, Tibet has one of the greatest resources of medicinal herbs, which number up to 1,000, including 300 kinds of rare Tibetan herbs such as cordyceps, ganodermas and snow lotuses.

There's a lot to plunder in Tibet!

Floating_Abu

Oh well the world is finite, and humans will probably pay in the end for what they have done. Or maybe not.

Sile

There are very clear parallels to the Jewish suicides during WWII -- the racial and religious persecution leading up to the suicides, the anger and of the government officials at the suicides, and the victims' fear of the authorities' retribution against friends and neighbors, and so forth. Judge Heinrich P and his partner Charlotte A of Helmsdorf, Germany, wrote in their suicide note, "Please do not give any trouble to our housekeeper...she has had nothing to do with our deaths." (http://bit.ly/KEcdUt)

It's been reported that at least 80 people in Lhasa have been arrested, following the recent suicides there.