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Was Jesus a Buddhist?
I am posting this question in a spirit of play, because I don't think there are any current scholars of religion who would take this question seriously. And yet...there are indeed some interesting parallels in their teachings. Marcus Borg, a progressive Christian writer and panentheist, has collected a number of sayings of Jesus and Buddha which reveal a remarkable parallelism. More than just similar principles ... very similar teachings, examples, parables, etc.
Buddha: They agreed among themselves, friends, here comes the recluse, Gotama, who lives luxuriously, who gives up his striving and reverted to luxury.
Jesus: The son of humanity came eating and drinking and they said look a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.
~*~
Buddha: With the relinquishing of all thought and egotism, the enlightened one is liberated through not clinging.
Jesus: Those who want to save their life will loose it. Those who loose their live for my sake will save it.
~*~
Buddha: One is the way to gain, the other is the way to Nirvana, knowing this fact, students of the Buddha should not take pleasure in being honored, but, should practice detachment.
Jesus: No slave can serve two masters For a slave will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
~*~
Buddha: Just as a mother would protect her only child at the risk of her own life, even so, cultivate a boundless heart towards all beings. Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world.
Jesus: This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.
~*~
Buddha: If you do not tend to one another then who is there to tend to you? Whoever who would tend me, he should tend the sick.
Jesus: Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these, so you have done it unto me.
~*~
Buddha: Consider others as yourself.
Jesus: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
~*~
Buddha: One who acts on truth is happy, in this world and beyond.
Jesus: You will know the truth and the truth will make you free.
~*~
Buddha:Hatred do not ever cease in this world by hating, but by love; this is an eternal truth... Overcome anger by love, Overcome evil by good. overcome the miser by giving, overcome the liar by truth.
Jesus: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. From anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again.
~*~
Some scholars posit Buddhist roots to the Essene sect of Judaism. I am not aware of any serious support for this contention, but it is interesting to consider. Particularly since one of Jesus' most famous teachings, the Beatitudes, apparently have Essene roots...and since Buddhism also has its own version of the same teachngs...
The Original Beatitudes
"In the 'Maha-Mangala-Sutta' (The Greatest Blessings, Sutta-Nipata II, 4, Khuddaka Nikaya) we read that a deva came to see the Buddha when he was staying at Anathapindika's monastery in the Jeta Grove, and asked him what the greatest blessings were. In reply the Buddha spoke to him about the greatest blessings. All the blessings of a life full of Dhamma are to be found in this sutta. We read:
Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise; and to honour those who are worthy of honour- this is the greatest blessing.
To reside in a suitable locality, to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course- this is the greatest blessing.
To have much learning, to be skilful in handicrafts, well-trained in discipline, and to be of good speech- this is the greatest blessing.
To support mother and father, to cherish wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupation- this is the greatest blessing.
To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct, to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action- this is the greatest blessing.
To loathe evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants, and to be steadfast in virtue- this is the greatest blessing.
To be respectful, humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions- this is the greatest blessing.
To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussion on due occasions - this is the greatest blessing.
Self-restraint, a holy and pure life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana- this is the greatest blessing.
A mind unruffled by worldly conditions, from sorrow freed, from defilements cleansed, full of peace- this is the greatest blessing.
Those who thus abide, ever remain invincible, in happiness established. These are the greatest blessings."
Buddha: They agreed among themselves, friends, here comes the recluse, Gotama, who lives luxuriously, who gives up his striving and reverted to luxury.
Jesus: The son of humanity came eating and drinking and they said look a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.
~*~
Buddha: With the relinquishing of all thought and egotism, the enlightened one is liberated through not clinging.
Jesus: Those who want to save their life will loose it. Those who loose their live for my sake will save it.
~*~
Buddha: One is the way to gain, the other is the way to Nirvana, knowing this fact, students of the Buddha should not take pleasure in being honored, but, should practice detachment.
Jesus: No slave can serve two masters For a slave will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
~*~
Buddha: Just as a mother would protect her only child at the risk of her own life, even so, cultivate a boundless heart towards all beings. Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world.
Jesus: This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.
~*~
Buddha: If you do not tend to one another then who is there to tend to you? Whoever who would tend me, he should tend the sick.
Jesus: Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these, so you have done it unto me.
~*~
Buddha: Consider others as yourself.
Jesus: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
~*~
Buddha: One who acts on truth is happy, in this world and beyond.
Jesus: You will know the truth and the truth will make you free.
~*~
Buddha:Hatred do not ever cease in this world by hating, but by love; this is an eternal truth... Overcome anger by love, Overcome evil by good. overcome the miser by giving, overcome the liar by truth.
Jesus: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. From anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again.
~*~
Some scholars posit Buddhist roots to the Essene sect of Judaism. I am not aware of any serious support for this contention, but it is interesting to consider. Particularly since one of Jesus' most famous teachings, the Beatitudes, apparently have Essene roots...and since Buddhism also has its own version of the same teachngs...
The Original Beatitudes
"In the 'Maha-Mangala-Sutta' (The Greatest Blessings, Sutta-Nipata II, 4, Khuddaka Nikaya) we read that a deva came to see the Buddha when he was staying at Anathapindika's monastery in the Jeta Grove, and asked him what the greatest blessings were. In reply the Buddha spoke to him about the greatest blessings. All the blessings of a life full of Dhamma are to be found in this sutta. We read:
Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise; and to honour those who are worthy of honour- this is the greatest blessing.
To reside in a suitable locality, to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course- this is the greatest blessing.
To have much learning, to be skilful in handicrafts, well-trained in discipline, and to be of good speech- this is the greatest blessing.
To support mother and father, to cherish wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupation- this is the greatest blessing.
To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct, to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action- this is the greatest blessing.
To loathe evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants, and to be steadfast in virtue- this is the greatest blessing.
To be respectful, humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions- this is the greatest blessing.
To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussion on due occasions - this is the greatest blessing.
Self-restraint, a holy and pure life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana- this is the greatest blessing.
A mind unruffled by worldly conditions, from sorrow freed, from defilements cleansed, full of peace- this is the greatest blessing.
Those who thus abide, ever remain invincible, in happiness established. These are the greatest blessings."
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Comments
Long time no see! How are you?
The similarities are striking, aren't they? The history of thought is one of the most fascinating studies ever.
Be well!
Brigid
What did Jesus do during his hidden years? From the final incident recorded of his childhood, right up until the moment he began his ministry in his thirties (though there are some theologians who claim it might well have been in his forties) nothing is known of him.... and nobody Christian has been able to come up with anything other than a shrug....
To my mind, he might well have applied himself to expanding his base of scriptural knowledge..... the times he said "You have heard it said......But I say unto you......" by means of contradicting the ancient Hebraic teachings.... tells me that he had discovered a better way.....
The New Testament is very different in its tone to the Old Testament.... Jesus had begun to live in more 'Enlightened' times.....?
Nice quotations above, and worth noting.... should someone come knocking and "Spreading the word"....What a fine and gentle way of "Spreading it right back atcha....!!"
That's so true, Fede!
When I was a little girl the issue of where Jesus had been during the interval you talk about was constantly on my mind. I wondered and wondered about it. I asked my parents and our priest and my teacher at school and a whole bunch of other people. Nobody seemed bothered by the need to know what had gone on in his life during these years and it bugged the hell out of me. How could they not care about this gaping hole in the history of his life? I used to take things a little too seriously when I was a child. As opposed to now. lol!
Brigid
Was Buddha a "Buddhist" come to that?
If both awakened to the same "truth", would that account for the similarity in their teachings?
Martin.
But you're right...I have seen it said elsewhere (and I have repeated it myself...) Buddha wasn't Buddhist either....
But the similarity in their teachings is only astonishing if you forget that they were not contemporaries....
Once you remember that Siddharta Gautama preceded Jesus Christ by a little over 500 years, then, the similarities are more noteworthy....
......If anyone would like an immediate referral and comparison to the biblical Beatitudes, here they are....
Have you read the Zen Teachings of Jesus by Ken Leong? I think it is a fabulous book. In the end, the truth is clear light, and there is no Buddhist or Christian. Those are just maps to reality, but not reality, just like the map of Rhode Island is just a map, and you can't live on that little line that says "North Main Street".
ECM
Well, I can't know what the historical Jesus actually taught - there seem to be a few versions.
The Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas, for example has a rather different empahsis:
"If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you."
Martin.
ECM
PS I have to go visit my relative in the hosptal, so I wont have time to continue in the discussion. He has cancer and it looks like it has spread, so things do not look good. Will appreciate your chants and prayers...
This may be a bit of a tangent, but for fun I'll share some passages from Dzogchen teachings that use theistic sounding language, but which is just a way of speaking about nonduality and nondual experience:
I am heart essence of all bon that is.
Bon-nature is not an object; it is your own mind:
Your uncontrived mind is the Body of Bon.
All arises from me, bon-phenomenon lord.
Know me and the All-Good is there.
~ Venerable Bon Awareness of Everything Tantra
Nothing, not even one thing
Does not arise from me.
Nothing, not even one thing
Dwells not within me.
Everything, absolutely everything
Emanates from me.
Thus I am only one.
Knowing me is knowing all --
Great bliss.
~ Secret Scripture Collection
Prior to either cyclic existence or nirvana
Is the ancestor, realization which is me, source that is All Good
(Samantabhadra)
Such is the forerunner of all Buddhas.
I am their progenitor, for I am their ancestor.
Explanations blessed by the heart of Samantabhadra are the
scriptures.
~ Essential Wholeness: the Changeless, Ceaseless Essence Tantra
Realization arises for me, Samantabhadra,
Via blessings of the single sole ancestor.
Not being deluded, it is known thus [as the unity of one's mind and
Samantabhadra]
From the center of the heart of Samantabhadra
Extracting the essence, explaining through blessings
This is the authentic and great definitive scripture.
Clear like the moon in water, appearanceless.
Like the lotus, naked of fault --
Spontaneous beauty, massive like the king of mountains.
~ Changeless, Ceaseless Primordial Completeness Tantra
I, the creativity of the universe, pure and total presence,
Am the real heart of all spiritual pursuits.
The three approaches with their three teachers
Do not exist apart from this one definitive approach.
This is the level of the creative energy of the universe, pure and
total presence.
It is the source of all spiritual pursuits...
All that is has me -- universal creativity, pure and total
presence -- as its root.
How things appear is my being.
How things arise is my manifestation.
Sounds and words heard are my messages expressed in sounds
and words.
All the capacities, forms, and pristine awareneses of the buddhas;
The bodies of sentient beings, their habituations, and so forth;
All environments and their inhabitants, life forms, and
experiences;
Are the primordial state of pure and total presence...
Listen: this majestic awareness, freely transforming itself,
Displays the integrated structure centered around the inner
reality of form.
Everything that exists and appears
Displays itself in the space of unborn reality.
In this reality there is nothng to accept or reject.
All that exists is displayed by me, the supreme ordering principle.
Listen: this teacher of teachers, the majestic creative
intelligence,
Displays the integrated structure centered around the inner
reality of communication.
Everything that exists and is designated
Displays itself as linguistic communication coming from the
unborn field
And is gathered into this inexplicable innter reality
of communication,
The supreme ordering principle's symphony.
Listen: the teacher of teachers, majestic creativity,
Displays the integrated structure centered around the inner
reality of awareness.
Know everything thought or attended to
To be the substance of the unborn ordering principle itself.
~ The Supreme Ordering Principle of the Universe
This is just a sampling of quotes from the Dzogchen (Bon/Buddhist) tradition which I think can be considered alongside Abrahamic teachings in a fruitful way, pointing (I believe) to the heart-essence at the root of both. In the above quotes, for instance, I see reflections on a number of Christian/Abrahamic themes: the Logos or Word, the Kingdom, the inspiration of scripture, creation (ex nihilo), the illuminative knowledge of God, etc.
http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/16notfarfrombuddhahood.html
_/\_
metta
What is it with you?? You always post things that go straight into me and set off bells ringing and give me a tiny taste of something huge. I've never read anything like those Dzogchen quotations before and reading them now comes on the heels of some other things I am just coming to understand. I need their sources because I want to put them in my blog on MySpace. I'll write for permission to publish and go through all the necessary channels. I wish my printer was working.
Thanks for posting them.
Brigid
You're welcome. They speak to me too. I found the first three quotes in Unbounded Wholeness, by Anne C. Klein. It's a pretty scholarly book, but interesting.
The final quote is from You Are the Eyes of the World, by Rabjam Longchenpa, translated by Kennard Lipman.
Best wishes,
Balder
Something that really strikes a note for me, although I am no longer a theist is a statement acreditted to Jesus, "The kingdom of God is at hand." Not much different then mindfullness if you ask me. It's being fully present here not out looking somewhere else that nirvana is attained. IMO
Palzang
It is just as clear to me that they both taught the same thing.
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=12,1906,0,0,1,0
Enjoy.......
Regarding questions surrounding the teachings of Christ (what were they, how do we know, etc.)...
For those who question the canonical gospels as accurate records of his life, there are other third party historians who corrorborate, at the very least, his claims to be the Christ - which in Greek means "anointed one," and in Hebrew is translated "Messiah," and is a direct reference to Jewish prophecies concerning salvation that would come from Yahweh. This historian also confirms that Jesus was executed at Pilate's order, after being persuaded by prominent Jewish leaders, and that Christianity began after his followers saw him "alive" three days after he died. (See "Antiquities of the Jews," Josephus, Book 18, Chapter 3).
All of that said, Jesus and Buddha definitely agreed on things that I consider universal truth.
Welcome, Panda. Hope you enjoy your stay with us.
I used to quote Josephus as an authority, too, until I stopped to ask myself a few questions about him. He was, after all, a traitor to Israel, a collaborator with the invader and a propagandist for Vespasian and Titus. Can we really trust a 'spin doctor'?
If we accept the Mahayana concept of Skillful Means, then we might be able to view the teachings of Jesus as preachings of the Dharma, though we would need not take the words of Jesus literally even while accepting the historical reliability of the Gospels.
In the Lotus Sutra it is stated that Avalokiteshvara can take the form of a Brahman ( one of Hindu priestly caste) and preach the Dharma. If so, then why can Avalokiteshvara not have taken the form that has been known to us as Jesus Christ?
Or perhaps Avalokiteshvara was in fact Mariam, the mother of Yeshua and Jesus was Jizo Bosatsu, (sorry I forget the Sanskrit name, it`s a long one and it is somehing like "Kshitigharba.") Funny, anyway, how much the Japanese "Jizo" and English "Jesus" or Italian "Gesu" sound so coincidental.
Mary is often associated with "mercy" and Avalokitesvara with "compassion". Jizo is the boddhisatva particularly associated with saving beings from Hell.
About a half a millenium ago when St. Francis Xavier came to Kagoshima, Japan (where I live) he became the first one to preach Jesus Christ in Japan. He was accepted and given permission to preach here by the Lord of Kagoshima because he was wrongly (or perhpas rightly ) thought to be preaching a new sect of Buddhism. Many years later when the Buddhists of Japan saw fit to kill off all of the Christians, some Catholics saved their necks by claming that the images they had of Mary were in fact of Kannon Bosatsu (Avalokiteshvara in the feminine and motherly image of Chinese/Japanese Buddhism) and that the images they had of Jesus were in fact of Jizo Bosatsu, the savior from hell.
Poetic Justice?
No way!
_/\_
metta
Palzang
Why not? we do it every other day....
like "I'm the word".. and stuff which is very similar to "I am the all and the one".. its all a bit.. well actually so am i.. are telling me we are all gods.LOL i think he's saying he's imperfect.. and impermanent and its a valuable lesson to all.. not praise me jews I'm a word..
As for jesus being a buddhist.. is all names.. names are personal and so is religion.. so there is no true path of religion.. means basically everybodys religion is the same.. and no-one is virtued over another.
Jesus was indeed a buddhist and not a buddhist
You begin to glimpse the mystery at the heart of the Jesus message. The answer is: yes!
BTW, I would consider the Gospel of John to be non-synoptic as several key statements & events do not happen in the previous 3 Gospels. Rather, I consider John to be an Esoteric text that can be very wonderful & helpful. However, things such as the 'uniqueness doctrine' ('only begotten son') seem to be largely unsupported in the rest of the Bible and are even questionable in the context of John itself.
_/\_
metta
The problems are so big that there were serious debates about including this in the early centuries. I find it fascinating that Athanasius, of all people, includes it in the list which is now called "canonical".
My own view, having read and re-read these texts, is that it provides a lens through which to see the other, Synoptic, biographical accounts. I also have little doubt that it was not by the same hand or mind as the final book, the "Apocalypse of John" or "Book of Revelation(s)": style and word use, in the Greek as in the English, are just too different.
Yeah, it seems that people just kind of lump it in with Matthew, Mark & Luke as a literal discourse, rather than treating it as a powerful esoteric treatise which may not be the only valid interpretation of Jesus' message. Of course, it was made part of the canonical (guideline) texts, so if you were part of the church, there was little room for alternate explanations. Also, it is arguable that the version we have of the text was not actually written (at least not all of it) by the apostle John, but one of his later disciples. At least this is the impression I got from Elaine Pagel's book, Beyond Belief. (I would recommend this book to anybody interested in these subject matters).
And I agree that the writer of Revelation was probably not the same as the writer of the Gospel of John. And both of these takes were hotly contested & were only narrowly accepted as canonical.
_/\_
metta
Gospel of John - Authored by John
Revelations - John on drugs.
Palzang
I think the discussion of the book of John is apropos, since it certainly houses the most controversial of Christ's claims (but again, we know that he must have said some controversial things, since he was executed in the most public and brutal way)
In any case, please note that until recently, many of argued that John was written in the 2nd century. But the John Rylands Papyrus 52 was discovered in Egypt, and it contained portions of John 18:31-33, 37 and 38...and was dated about 135 AD. The reality is that a considerable period of time would have had to pass in order for John's gospel to be copied and circulated before it reached Egypt, which puts it more likely around 100 AD, which is when "church history" puts the date of authorship. Furthermore, at the time it was being circulated and read by the early church, there were many living colleagues of the apostles who could have denied the authorship...but none did, and John's writing style in this book matches that of his epistles and was accepted by the early church as his. Also, during that time, John was the oldest living disciple, the rest having been executed in brutal ways because they refused to deny that they had seen Jesus risen and alive...which is very odd, by the way, and should give us all some pause.
Anyway, John's gospel combatted the sect of gnostic Christianity, something the other gospels were not addressing. So John did have an agenda, and there were certain stories and "speeches" that he felt were important, that the other writers did not include. We could then say that John was simply "wrong" about Jesus, but I think we'd then have to concede that Jesus wasn't a very good teacher since John was his student for three years, and one of Jesus' closest comrades. Some people are okay with making that concession...some insist he was a great teacher who was "misunderstood" by his students, which strikes me as a kind of comical oxymoron.
I agree with Balder that the question, "Was Jesus a Buddhist?" is not one to be taken seriously....but I'm always amazed at how quickly the Gospels are discredited, when the reality is that there is more manuscript evidence for the authorship of the Gospels than there is for the authorship of the Illiad. By dismissing any possible "historical account" of Christ that can be trusted - especially the ones penned by His closest followers - we can cast such a shadow on his life, that no one can ever know who he really was, or what he really said, or what he really did...and shrouded in mystery, Jesus is beyond examination and we can speculate endlessly about him.
The church of today is a far cry from the disciples who were martyred in the first century. I don't believe most of the Christians I see and hear. They embarrass me with their actions and their behavior. But John...Matthew...Peter...(The source for Mark's gospel, and Mark's mentor)...they were executed because they refused to deny what they had seen...it wasn't "faith" for them, they claimed to see it with their eyes, even as they were tortured to death. If that doesn't give one pause...
Nonetheless, I'm glad to see Jesus being discussed! I guess it can't be helped. He somehow managed to change history forever, so he's worth discussing, even if we all decide that nothing can be discussed about him, because nothing about him can ever be known. :-)
Love,
Panda
Well, I'm not al too concerned about how the whole Jesus thing came about the whole thing makes sense. Jewish, well, what type. If perhaps he had come from the school of Kabbalah, and through trade from the east met a Hindu or Buddhist of the time it all makes sense. Things usually aren't always as exciting as we like to fantisize they are. Like Buddhism to myself it's more a philosophy than religion. Just stay away from the red wrist strings, that's thier fundraiser.;)
http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/talmud_eser_sefirot/preface/preface.htm
Could you please tell me why you think it fascinating that St. Athanasius regarded the Gospel of John as canonical? And by the way, have you ever read a book called Reading John from The Center by Bruno Barnhardt of New Camaldoli Immaculate Heart Hermitage in Big Sur, California? The book seems to point out a mandala-like structure in the Gospel of John. If you have read it, what did you think?
To Simon and everyone:
Not that I regard any of the gospels as historical documents, but the question of authorship is one that may never be settled conclusively, it seems to me. I find it interesting that the Greek/Eastern Christian churches preserve a tradition that the gospel of John was more or less "dictated" to John`s disciple (his name was something like Procoros). I have always wondered if the difference in style and vocabulary between the Apocalypse of John and the Gospel/Epistles of John might be due John`s having actually written the Apocalypse quickly in prison by himself after his revelation, whereas the Gospel and Epistles of John were more polished co-productions of John and his secretary/disciple.
More on the topic of this thread:
What I tried to say (very clumsily) before was that Jesus wasn`t a Buddhist. He was a Jew. But Jesus might be what happens when a Boddhisattva takes birth as a Jewish prophet.
Yeah, that's exactly the way I'd put it. Nowhere is it written that bodhisattvas can only appear as Buddhists - quite the opposite! It is written, for example, that the most compassionate bodhisattva is the one in the hell realms...
Palzang
I would guess.....
Why not? The Bodhisattva vow that I took says, "I will return in whatever form necessary, under extraordinary circumstances, to end suffering. Let me be born in times unpredictable and places unknown until all sentient beings are liberated from the cycle of death and rebirth." It's not about going to heaven and spending eternity in bliss. It's about going where there are suffering sentient beings and working to liberate them, whatever the personal cost.
Or to put it in want ad form:
"Wanted, bodhisattvas. Willing to work long eons. No pay, but plenty of merit. May require travel to hell realms and other not-so-nice places."
Palzang
-bf
(Nope.)
And sorry, bf, no bennies either. It's strictly come as you are.
It does get complicated and difficult to understand. The vow is to delay one's own enlightenment until all sentient beings are liberated, but just taking such a vow is the source of limitless merit. The power of the vow, though, combined with a strong practice and true devotion, can result in a conscious rebirth where one is most needed. That's the vow. Of course, just saying the vow doesn't guarantee anything. You also have to accomplish it, which is a garuda of a different color!
Palzang
I asked him how long the Bardo was, between dying in this life, and being re-born into the next, and he answered:
"Generally speaking, 49 days. For an ordinary human being, it is 49 days. But for those who have made good progress along the path and have accumulated merit, it can be much less. For an Enlightened Bodhistattva, it might be immediate. And they might also choose a different realm, depending on where they feel they could be most useful...."
"In short," added his interpreter, "the better you are, the greater your scope!"
Some shoulders rose, and others fell..... :om:
http://www.prajna.nl/teksten/onderricht/soetras/kshitigarbha.htm
But I wouldn`t exactly recommend it unless one is rather used to the style and content of Mahayana Sutras.
Palzang
So a Bodhisattva can be either enlightened or not, depending on their progress? And the important thing is the intent, right? And the further along one is, the more conscious the rebirth? Is that close?
But they never actually get to nirvana, do they? Because there are a never ending amount of beings to help. So if one takes the vow to keep returning in order to lead all beings to enlightenment, one never actually reaches that goal, do they? That blows my mind. How could I ever be strong enough to take such a vow? (Palzang: :bowdown: ) It's so difficult to know what to take literally and what to take metaphorically, especially since I'm such a literal person. I mean, if I was faced with the decision whether to take the Bodhisattva Vow, how could I take a vow I knew I could never actually achieve? That's the biggest part of what I don't understand. And then someone said a few months ago that there aren't actually any beings to help to enlightenment and no Bodhisattvas to do the helping. What on earth did that mean? Is that because the ultimate reality of all beings is emptiness? If that's so, than one would take the Vow only on one level while knowing that on the ultimate level it doesn't actually apply. Like straddling two understandings. But there's a huge gap in there for me, right around where the nothingness meets the lower level or physical level of reality...I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. lol!! Help! I'm drowning in my own stupidity!! (This feels just like being in 11th grade math all over again. I'm desperate for some Zepellin blasting from my record player.)
It would be totally cool with me if this post actually went completely ignored. I'd understand completely. lol! I know, I have some reading to do...