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Poker-playing Buddhist monks scandalise South Korea
I think its appropriate (or maybe I'm just waxing) to note that even if your conscience is broken, the video camera may not be. This is another win for Big Brother, and unfortunately it leads people down a slippery slope of checks and balances. More videos will surface of other shenanigans... more people will be inspired to take such videos... I'm just not sure that it solves anything. We still have to face our demons. The camera may not lie, but it also doesnt practice compassion, and anything inside the frame doesnt really take into account what's outside the frame, and that kind of neglectful focus can be damaging to all of us.
I just re-read what I wrote and, yup, it was just waxing.
I think its appropriate (or maybe I'm just waxing) to note that even if your conscience is broken, the video camera may not be. This is another win for Big Brother, and unfortunately it leads people down a slippery slope of checks and balances. More videos will surface of other shenanigans... more people will be inspired to take such videos... I'm just not sure that it solves anything. We still have to face our demons. The camera may not lie, but it also doesnt practice compassion, and anything inside the frame doesnt really take into account what's outside the frame, and that kind of neglectful focus can be damaging to all of us.
I just re-read what I wrote and, yup, it was just waxing.
Wasn't big brother who planted the camera, but a disgruntled alternate faction (likely working for the Baptist-controlled government, but that's my personal theory). At any rate, color me unscandalized over Korea's arcane, ultra-Baptist gambling restrictions.
I say this as a kid who devised a way to play poker with Rook cards And yes, just because it was intriguingly "worldly."
and what about your description of your alleged camera perp isnt big brother-ish? sounds like you described big brother pretty well: a faction in control that uses surviellance to maintain and strengthen that control. again, though, just waxing.
no. I'm not saying that at all. I'm actually not saying anything about the incident in question. I'm just commenting on how the methods for attaining this info can fall short of fully describing what actually happened, and that the success of the method might inspire other people to do the same thing, which is clearly also an effort of deception. I'm saying that the ends dont justify the means, and never should as an act of intentionality. Two wrongs dont make a right?or one less wrong than the other, do they?
I'm really not sure how monks relaxing after a conference is a big deal. It's not like they were hanging out at a brothel with underage girls, or getting into bloody fistfights, you know? The old "evils of gambling and smoking" thing has a pretty clear vibe of Christian judgmentalism to it. Neither playing cards, nor tobacco use, is considered evil, in many countries. Why on earth should it be? Do any of the reporters or commentators on the story smoke, themselves? Do they play cards with buddies? Hope not.
At any rate, the Jogye Order did 100 days of penance and hired outside bookkeepers to run their finances. A lot swifter (and more penitent) action than many institutions have taken for worse crimes.
no. I'm not saying that at all. I'm actually not saying anything about the incident in question. I'm just commenting on how the methods for attaining this info can fall short of fully describing what actually happened, and that the success of the method might inspire other people to do the same thing, which is clearly also an effort of deception. I'm saying that the ends dont justify the means, and never should as an act of intentionality. Two wrongs dont make a right?or one less wrong than the other, do they?
I guess it depends on whether you see secretive recording of someone's behavior as being wrong. I don't, at least in this case.
If someone was murdering someone, or raping someone, I'd hope they would be apprehended using surveillance.
I'm really not sure how monks relaxing after a conference is a big deal. It's not like they were hanging out at a brothel with underage girls, or getting into bloody fistfights, you know? The old "evils of gambling and smoking" thing has a pretty clear vibe of Christian judgmentalism to it. Neither playing cards, nor tobacco use, is considered evil, in many countries. Why on earth should it be? Do any of the reporters or commentators on the story smoke, themselves? Do they play cards with buddies? Hope not.
At any rate, the Jogye Order did 100 days of penance and hired outside bookkeepers to run their finances. A lot swifter (and more penitent) action than many institutions have taken for worse crimes.
The issue isn't gambling. I could care less about gambling. Although, they are monks. Perhaps they shouldn't be monks. Perhaps they should be lay people.
The issue was that they were given money by lay people for some reason, and then they used it for another reason...an apparently illegal reason. That's theft.
When I was younger I loaned my car to a young friend to drive 2 miles to night school. Instead, he drove to Philadelphia, about 300 miles away...and totaled it. I didn't press charges, but the police said I could (and should) have because he exceeded the scope of what I gave him my car to do, and that amounted grand theft auto.
Stop and think how upset people get if they donate money to a charity and too big a percentage of it is used for overhead expenses. Here, people gave money and it was used for gambling.
You know, throughout this forum there are people who say that it only matters if you break Precepts that you have taken a vow to uphold (not that I quite agree with that). These monks took vows. And broke them. And stole money. And gambled with it.
no. I'm not saying that at all. I'm actually not saying anything about the incident in question. I'm just commenting on how the methods for attaining this info can fall short of fully describing what actually happened, and that the success of the method might inspire other people to do the same thing, which is clearly also an effort of deception. I'm saying that the ends dont justify the means, and never should as an act of intentionality. Two wrongs dont make a right?or one less wrong than the other, do they?
I guess it depends on whether you see secretive recording of someone's behavior as being wrong. I don't, at least in this case.
If someone was murdering someone, or raping someone, I'd hope they would be apprehended using surveillance.
Well--it is illegal. I'm not sure about South Korea, but wiretapping and related crimes are generally treated more seriously than gambling.
These monks took vows. And broke them. And stole money. And gambled with it.
I don't believe anyone's being prosecuted for theft; the funds were donated. It may be bad form to use funds donated to your temple to play cards with, but it's not theft. I mean, it's their own funds.
no. I'm not saying that at all. I'm actually not saying anything about the incident in question. I'm just commenting on how the methods for attaining this info can fall short of fully describing what actually happened, and that the success of the method might inspire other people to do the same thing, which is clearly also an effort of deception. I'm saying that the ends dont justify the means, and never should as an act of intentionality. Two wrongs dont make a right?or one less wrong than the other, do they?
I guess it depends on whether you see secretive recording of someone's behavior as being wrong. I don't, at least in this case.
If someone was murdering someone, or raping someone, I'd hope they would be apprehended using surveillance.
Well--it is illegal. I'm not sure about South Korea, but wiretapping and related crimes are generally treated more seriously than gambling.
The Jogye Order was in the news again this past Saturday, when it issued a formal request that a Buddhist delegation from mainland China apologize for an incident at a Korean Buddhist conference this past June. The Chinese delegation had demanded that Tibetan Buddhists attending the conference leave; when they didn't, the Chinese delegation walked out. Not sure why the Catholics are tracking this, but at any rate:
It doesn't show either the Chinese or Jogye orders as very praiseworthy. The Chinese monks demanded the Tibetan monks leave, the Korean hosts actually caved and the Tibetan monks were asked not to participate. Then after all that, the Chinese monks still left early. And now the Jogye order is demanding an apology from China? All sides should be apologizing to the Tibetan monks instead.
It is impossible for large, traditional Buddhist orders with strong ties to the local government to remain untarnished by politics. It just can't happen.
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DaftChrisSpiritually conflicted. Not of this world.Veteran
edited July 2012
Organized religion always corrupts.
Not always. It can, but not always.
Just because some Catholic priests molested some children, does that mean that religion has corrupted all priests? No. Most Catholics and priests I've known and read about are absolutely disgusted by the Catholic molestation scandal. While the institution can, and does, have influence, it is up to the individual to take responsibility for their decisions.
Gahndi said that any time financial stability is attained, spiritual bankruptcy is also attained. He said this in reference to Christianity while also saying that he didn't think that Christianity's real message (the sermon on the mount) had been fullfilled yet.
I understand why anybody might argue with this, but I think it merits pondering. I also think that when an institution of ANY kind gets too big, or has been around so long, that it tends to become a little full of itself and that can create an atmosphere of unthinking compliance, which is a prime place for immoral activity to occur. Re: Penn State University.
Just because some Catholic priests molested some children, does that mean that religion has corrupted all priests? No. Most Catholics and priests I've known and read about are absolutely disgusted by the Catholic molestation scandal. While the institution can, and does, have influence, it is up to the individual to take responsibility for their decisions.
The same can be said for these monks.
You're very right about that, Chris. A local Catholic priest (I think he is 77) just pleaded guilty to molestation. My two close friends not only go to the same church, but thought he was a wonderful priest. But the other day they said despite how much they liked him and his age, he should go to prison.
Comments
I just re-read what I wrote and, yup, it was just waxing.
I say this as a kid who devised a way to play poker with Rook cards
The issue was that monks were gambling with donations to the temple.
Are you guys saying since it was recorded unknowingly, then it's okay for the monks to be gambling with temple money?
At any rate, the Jogye Order did 100 days of penance and hired outside bookkeepers to run their finances. A lot swifter (and more penitent) action than many institutions have taken for worse crimes.
If someone was murdering someone, or raping someone, I'd hope they would be apprehended using surveillance.
The issue was that they were given money by lay people for some reason, and then they used it for another reason...an apparently illegal reason. That's theft.
When I was younger I loaned my car to a young friend to drive 2 miles to night school. Instead, he drove to Philadelphia, about 300 miles away...and totaled it. I didn't press charges, but the police said I could (and should) have because he exceeded the scope of what I gave him my car to do, and that amounted grand theft auto.
Stop and think how upset people get if they donate money to a charity and too big a percentage of it is used for overhead expenses. Here, people gave money and it was used for gambling.
You know, throughout this forum there are people who say that it only matters if you break Precepts that you have taken a vow to uphold (not that I quite agree with that). These monks took vows. And broke them. And stole money. And gambled with it.
It is impossible for large, traditional Buddhist orders with strong ties to the local government to remain untarnished by politics. It just can't happen.
Just because some Catholic priests molested some children, does that mean that religion has corrupted all priests? No. Most Catholics and priests I've known and read about are absolutely disgusted by the Catholic molestation scandal. While the institution can, and does, have influence, it is up to the individual to take responsibility for their decisions.
The same can be said for these monks.
I understand why anybody might argue with this, but I think it merits pondering. I also think that when an institution of ANY kind gets too big, or has been around so long, that it tends to become a little full of itself and that can create an atmosphere of unthinking compliance, which is a prime place for immoral activity to occur. Re: Penn State University.