Three traditions: Zen, Tibetan, and Theravada and 'Vajra' energy...

Jeffrey

I'm using Vajra as sort of a catch all for whatever energies of life someone has experienced. Prajna, Prana, Vajra, sexual energy, qi...

But I do think sexual energy is different from qui and prana.. By sexual energy I do NOT mean being horny, arousal is just a possibility rather than a synonym.

Anyhow I don't believe that tantric practitioners are the only people who have knowledge of vajra energy. We have a thread where the theme is to put what sutra and tantra think of Buddhism. So what do you think of Zen, Tibetan, and Theravadan..

Vajra (etc) energy

Theravadan
Tibetan
Zen

I think Tibetan tries to use the Vajra energy to harness transferal of the positive images of their guru and meditational deities. I am not sure if that is right?

I don't know what approach Theravada takes.

I think Zen doesn't make a big deal. Just being in meditation. Chop wood carry water. I think the koans are exercises in using the vajra energy and the master gives both positive and negative signals.

taiyaki

There is mention of energy in different traditions.

For instance in the Zen tradition some place emphasis on bringing ones attention at the hara or navel center. That brings the mind away from the head center and more in sync with the intuition of the gut.

Not sure about Theravada.

Vajrayana is the only tradition that solely is up front about the subtle energy, channels, etc.

Just some thoughts.

Prana is always from the breath.

Sexual energy is kundalini energy.

Each centers use the energies in different ways.

Lala

caz

Vajrayana is the only path which shows a practitioner how to use the inner winds and channels combined with eliminating ordinary appearance ( which is a subtle delusion by the way) through the means of deity meditation to bring the practitioner to a state of great bliss and use this mind to see very clearly the emptiness of all phenomena that shall cut away all gross, subtle and very subtle delusions that obstruct us from attaining full enlightenment.

driedleaf

I believe it is the same with all traditions. Mind is energy.

Sile

Vajrayana is the only path which shows a practitioner how to use the inner winds and channels combined with eliminating ordinary appearance ( which is a subtle delusion by the way) through the means of deity meditation to bring the practitioner to a state of great bliss and use this mind to see very clearly the emptiness of all phenomena that shall cut away all gross, subtle and very subtle delusions that obstruct us from attaining full enlightenment.

Beautiful - love this explanation.

Sile

This is an excerpt from a fascinating treatise on Theravada Tantra in Cambodia - I'm not sure if this addresses Jeffrey's OP regarding energy, specifically enough, so I'll try to find more, but in the meantime:

"Tantra, or vajrayana, moves from speculative thought to enactment of Buddhist ideas in individual life. Though the words “tantra” and “vajrayana” are unknown in Cambodian sphere, the esoteric tradition exists. Vajra signifies absolute reality and indestructible reality in man, as opposed to the illusory. The mantra prevents the mind from going astray into fictions and verbiage, remaining aware of reality. In Cambodian Theravada Buddhism this is the synthesis of yogacara discipline, which emphasized the ultimate of mind, and madyamika, which resists any relative principle as absolute. Dealing with the inner experience, esoteric Buddhism uses highly symbolic texts to recapture the enlightenment experience of the Buddha. These traditions were found in Java, Cham, Cambodia, Issan, Sri Dhammarat."

http://www.khmerbuddhism.com/profiles/blogs/theravada-tantra-kammathana-escoteric-meditation-in-cambodian

Sile

I don't understand this description completely (from the same link as above) but I find it beautiful and intriguingly outward-focused:

Tambian describes the “tantric” mystic of Mekong-basin as a “purist virtuoso” who “brings a cosmic love for people at large” and wants to extend to them “some part of his mystic experience and psychic consequents.”

federica

Unfortunately, to me, that sounds awful - very "New-agey" - and one of the reasons why Theravada has far more, no-nonsense appeal.

Jeffrey

@federica and all,

I think the point of my post is missed. ALL of us have this energy. Even if you think it is neurotransmitters. Kids get high on sugar and imagination. As you age this sexual energy gets more and more which is why there are all these addictions. Not getting it leads to addictions.

Federica's post though it made a point I would be interested to explore how theravada handles this out of control energy. Just an example but thanisarro bhiku if I recall teaches pranayama breathing in order to access meditation states.

Sile

Gil Fronsdal wrote a fascinating and I think very important paper in 1995, "The Treasures of the Theravada: Recovering the Riches of Our Tradition," which included the following observations:

"When it comes to meditation practices, Theravada Buddhism has a much more rich and varied repertoire than is obvious from what is offered at Western or even Southeast Asian vipassana centers. While not as elaborate as some Tibetan visualization practices, there are a wide variety of Theravada meditations involving mental imaging of buddhas; bodhisattvas, arhats, celestial realms, corpses, and the primary colors and elements. While not as carefully collected, organized and commented on as Japanese Zen Koans, there is a Theravada tradition of practicing with a dharma, question or riddle, e.g., “What is the place that does not come or go or stand still?” “If the Buddha was never born, where is he now?” or “How can we live so as not to be seen by the king of Death?” The monastic forest traditions of Thailand (e.g., among the lineages of Achaan Mun, Achaan Maha Boowa and Achaan Cha) have also preserved a variety of practices using sacred mantras for concentration and insight; sometimes we find these mantras used in conjunction with rituals of protection or exorcism. In some Burmese and Thai meditation traditions there are practices that involve focusing on chakra or energy centers in the body and other practices involving energy transmission from teacher to student (e.g., among the U Ba Khin tradition in Burma and at Wat Paknam in Thailand). While the practice of vipassana might be highly effective, it would be a pity to ignore this wide variety of skillful means."

The entire piece is well worth the read:

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/books-articles/articles/the-treasures-of-the-theravada/

federica

if you focus too much on the energy, it becomes your focus to the point of distraction.
it's like telling people to not visualise a frog with a jacket on.
all they can think about, is a frog with a jacket on.
Sexual energy dissipates - like anything else - if you stop paying so much attention to it.
And it decreases with age, anyway.

Sile

I would be interested to explore how theravada handles this out of control energy. Just an example but thanisarro bhiku if I recall teaches pranayama breathing in order to access meditation states.

Totally agree - I was searching to see, for example, whether there are any Theravada descriptions of transforming anger as opposed to diluting or avoiding it.

I guess I like the concept that energy itself is neither good or bad; therefore, does the response always have to be to dilute or avoid it? Energy is so natural - it only seems logical that there would be a way to use it for something good, instead of only resisting it.

Jeffrey

@federica, I mean a more fundamental sexual energy which increases with age. Trying to find some support for this theory... I guess just as time goes by windows keep closing and the power is needed to get a new one open. You're left with a lot of irons in the fire.

I'm not talking about fluidity. I am talking about handling pressures. The Lion King is a story of the transition.

Sile

ALL of us have this energy. Even if you think it is neurotransmitters. Kids get high on sugar and imagination.

I think it's interesting that modern (or maybe not so modern any more) mind science even uses the word "channel," though usually in psychology or therapy it's used as a verb. "Channel the child's excess energy into a positive activity, such as chopping wood [kidding]."

The concept of "channel" implies that energy itself--neither good nor bad in itself--can be directed this way or that, and that it's possible to establish patterns where the child/patient channels energy towards something positive, to hopefully replace the old familiar habit of channeling it into destructive behavior.

federica

@federica, I mean a more fundamental sexual energy which increases with age.

Then I simply do not understand what you are talking about.

Trying to find some support for this theory...

so actually, neither do you, entirely....?

I guess just as time goes by windows keep closing and the power is needed to get a new one open. You're left with a lot of irons in the fire.

nope.
no idea.... sorry J.

I'm not talking about fluidity. I am talking about handling pressures. The Lion King is a story of the transition.

Ah. Sorry, again....never watched it.... Over-schmalzed Disney movies focussing on anthropomorphism leave me cold....

Jeffrey

@federica, I'll try again if I can think of a way to explain.

Perhaps 'wisdom energy'.

Sile

@federica, I'll try again if I can think of a way to explain.

Perhaps 'wisdom energy'.

I agree, because I believe that the (coarsely described) "body energy" of youth becomes some other kind of energy as we age. Or probably better put, energy is always there, and in youth it manifests as moving your body around a lot, whereas in age, it might manifest as the ability to concentrate, wisely analyze, impart wisdom, etc.

We assume that the youth has "more energy" (certainly seems like it!), but personally I subscribe to the model that the "energy" of youth is not replaced with wisdom, necessarily, but rather shows itself as wisdom (or other, more mind-related powers).

Part of what's confusing, I think, is that when Tibetan science describes these mental energies, it refers to them moving through the body; I think that makes it easy for us to mix these energies up with the concept "body energy," or "level of non-tiredness," etc.

Sile

By this same token, I think of "sexual energy" as not a completely different energy from "anger energy," but just a path the energy is taking. It seems that different pathways can focus the energy differently or more powerfully (not unlike water running through a narrowing channel), and that directing energy into this sexual channel (or any other concentrating channel) can be a skillful way to work with it - sort of a spiritual Venturi Effect (fluid forced through a narrow channel increases in velocity).

Sile

I guess "mind-related power" can also be a misnomer, unless we are careful to distinguish it from "brain-related power." Maybe it would be better to say mental power. After all, it's the mind/brain which at some point directs the energy to the youth's legs or to the elder's...I don't know...frontal lobe? Of course all this is again a very coarse level of energy movement, but at least a place to start in looking at our experience of energy.

I really like the phrase "wisdom energy," @Jeffrey.

PrairieGhost

Years ago I spoke to a friend about this energy, and she said 'well, my teacher would probably say it's just a symptom of ego'. I was quite offended by this at the time, but the teacher was right.

Additionally, one can't manipulate the energy any more than one can manipulate the weather, which is also not-self.

DaltheJigsaw

This is an interesting thread! Would love to hear more!

DaltheJigsaw

Any good resources on this topic? Or books?

seeker242

Energy is a pretty big deal in zen, but it's not usually called "energy", it's normally referred to as "effort". Chop wood, carry water is misleading because that was said by someone who was already a master who spent year and years making a disciplined effort to practice. "Energy" is normally spoken about in the context of the 4th Paramita of the "6 Paramitas" or the "Virya Paramita".

4) The Perfection of Joyous Effort / Enthusiastic Perseverance (Virya Paramita)

This paramita is the enlightened quality of energy, vigor, vitality, endurance, diligence, enthusiasm, continuous and persistent effort. In order to practice the first three paramitas of generosity, virtuous conduct, and patience in the face of difficulties, we need this paramita of joyous effort and perseverance. Joyous effort makes the previous paramitas increase and become even more powerful influences in our life. The essence of this paramita of joyous effort is the courage, energy, and endurance to continuously practice the Dharma and pursue the supreme goal of enlightenment for the highest good of all beings. From a feeling of deep compassion for the suffering of all sentient beings, we are urged to unfailing, persistent, and joyous effort. We use our body, speech, and mind to work ceaselessly and untiringly for the benefit of others, with no expectations for personal recognition or reward. We are always ready to serve others to the best of our ability. With joyous effort, devoted energy, and the power of sustained application, we practice the Dharma without getting sidetracked by anything or falling under the influence of laziness. Without developing Virya Paramita, we can become easily disillusioned and drop our practice when we meet with adverse conditions. The word virya means persistence and perseverance in the face of disillusionment, energetically striving to attain the supreme goal of enlightenment. When we cultivate this type of diligence and perseverance we have a strong and healthy mind. We practice with persistent effort and enthusiasm because we realize the tremendous value and benefit of our Dharma practice. Firmly establishing ourselves in this paramita, we also develop self-reliance, and this becomes one of our most prominent characteristics. With joyous effort and enthusiastic perseverance, we regard failure as simply another step toward success, danger as an inspiration for courage, and affliction as another opportunity to practice wisdom and compassion. To develop strength of character, self-reliance, and the next paramita of concentration, is not an easy achievement, thus we need enthusiastic perseverance on the path. http://www.naljorprisondharmaservice.org/pdf/SixParamitas.htm

Sile

It seems to me that Buddhism places a great deal of emphasis on an energy within ourselves, whereas pre-Buddhist, indigenous, or shamanistic traditions seem to pay a lot of attention to energy between ourselves and others--others, including animals, trees, mountains, rivers, lakes, etc. I find this fascinating.

In the case of the inanimate "others," that is usually represented by a spirit--so it's not the mountain itself, but the spirit of that mountain in question.

A common pre-Buddhist approach to illness, then, would be to address some kind of problem (energy imbalance?) between, say, the afflicted person and a local mountain spirit. Some of this belief is still reflected in Tibetan Buddhism, where for example, various spirits can be a condition for cancer, or at least a partial condition. This is sometimes called "spirit harm." It's also possible to develop cancer without any spirit harm as a condition.

So I think it would be interesting, in our examination of "energy" in Buddhism, to see if the practitioner's inner "wisdom energy" is related to, or the same thing, as energy that may flow between beings, as well as within them.

I imagine that, since when we recognize our true nature or glimpse reality, we are basically united with the fundamental wisdom energy that is ultimate reality, it would be hard to say that our own wisdom energy isn't somehow connected to that of other beings, at least ultimately. I guess I'm wondering, then, how, on a coarser level, this energy interacts.

On a coarser level, there is just me, and that other guy, two apparently separate beings. But we know how that story goes--is it logical, then, to say that our own wisdom energy is connected to "that other guy's," and then to think that we can have influence on, or be influenced by, someone else's wisdom energy on a coarse level?

Sile

Came across a borrowed copy of Paramahansa Yogandanda's "Biography of a Yogi" yesterday while cleaning--as luck would have it, found this paragraph:

"The different sensory stimuli to which man reacts--tactual, visual, gustatory, auditory and olfactory--are produced by vibratory variations in electrons and protons. The vibrations in turn are regulated by prana, "lifetrons," subtle life forces or finer-than-atomic energies intelligently charged with the five distinctive sensory idea-substances."

PrairieGhost

Sile

I imagine that, since when we recognize our true nature or glimpse reality, we are basically united with the fundamental wisdom energy that is ultimate reality, it would be hard to say that our own wisdom energy isn't somehow connected to that of other beings, at least ultimately. I guess I'm wondering, then, how, on a coarser level, this energy interacts.


On a coarser level, there is just me, and that other guy, two apparently separate beings. But we know how that story goes--is it logical, then, to say that our own wisdom energy is connected to "that other guy's," and then to think that we can have influence on, or be influenced by, someone else's wisdom energy on a coarse level?

The problem with this kind of speculation is that one is supposing the energy to be real, and a principle. Which might lead to some very wacky speculations, or even madness, if clung to.

I don't mean to alarm anyone who is experiencing this type of energy, but my advice would be to let it be and treat it as if it's not your direct business, like your heart beating or your stomach digesting, even if doing so is easier said than done.

We're trying to let go here, not to gain further control of gross or subtle perceptions.

Sile

The problem with this kind of speculation is that one is supposing the energy to be real, and a principle. Which might lead to some very wacky speculations, or even madness, if clung to.

I don't mean to alarm anyone who is experiencing this type of energy, but my advice would be to let it be and treat it as if it's not your direct business, like your heart beating or your stomach digesting, even if doing so is easier said than done.

We're trying to let go here, not to gain further control of gross or subtle perceptions.

I think that depends on the goal, doesn't it? Understanding life and how it works is a big one for me, but if for example energy does flow in some way between humans, that affects concepts such as healing and so on. Many people believe strongly that healing energy does exist, and that a skillful healer can use it to help people.

So much of this is just terminology and perspective, though...whether we're talking about spooky energy beams or the effects of (for example) emotion, humans absolutely do influence each other. I.e. it could be that when my sister's in a bad mood, that effects me (since I care about her)...or I suppose it could be that there's some spooky jagged energy coming out of my sister that actually physically affects me.

Energy, or anything, can be an unsettling topic, but I'm not sure that means we shouldn't examine it. One thing I always think of when worrying about such things is, "It is what it is, so however it is, it's not a big deal." Something like telling myself that the outcome doesn't depend on my analysis--energy is what it is, whatever that is, and I've survived it so far, so there's no need to be too worried about it. Now I'm just doing an exercise where I look at energy from different angles, but it's not going to change anything one way or the other, except to get (maybe) a better understanding.

PrairieGhost

Sile

It is what it is

Yes, that's what Einstein thought, and after that point his work on quantum physics hit a dead end, and it was left to others to advance.

What if it isn't, exactly? Or sometimes it is but sometimes it isn't? Our reasoning minds don't like that kind of ambiguity.

I think that depends on the goal, doesn't it?

Do not tarry for treasures half-glimpsed in dark pools beside the way.

Sile

Do not tarry for treasures half-glimpsed in dark pools beside the way.

If the half-glimpsed treasure is something I'm supposed to learn, though, I guess I'll just have to tarry and meet you guys a little later up the road

Sometimes good things take a lot of tarrying, imho.

What if it isn't, exactly? Or sometimes it is but sometimes it isn't?

And I think we're dangerously close to asking what the definition of "is" is...is it any coincidence Bill Clinton was just in my town, lol?

But I dig it...I guess my answer would be that if it "sometimes is, but sometimes isn't," then that, too, is the way it is.

PrairieGhost

Fair. It's not a gift for you though, you are a gift for it. Trying to control genies is notoriously prone to backfiring.

Sile

Maybe it would be appropriate to cite a few more summaries of Eastern thought on energy.

Jeffrey had mentioned prana:

Wikipedia: In Vedantic philosophy, prana is the notion of a vital, life-sustaining force of living beings and vital energy...believed to flow through a network of fine subtle channels called nadis.

And:

Prana is a Sanskrit word for "life air" or "life force." It is present all over the universe both in macrocosm (space) and microcosm (bodies of living beings). Its proper flow in our bodies assures their healthy state. (http://veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/prana.htm)

The second definition seems to show that this energy is in fact considered to be both internal and external, at least in the Vedic understanding.

Rangjung Yeshe Dictionary: Prana. The 'winds' or energy-currents of the body [RY]

Interestingly, the RY definition doesn't mention the macrocosm.

From RigpaWiki:

The term inner air or lung (Wyl. rlung; Skt. prāṇa), refers to the 'wind-energies' or 'psychic winds' that travel through the subtle channels or tsa of the body's psycho-physical system, as outlined in the Tibetan Buddhist tantras.

There are five root and five branch winds. The winds that flow through all the channels except the central one are said to be impure and activate negative, dualistic thought patterns; the winds in the central channel are called "wisdom winds".

[This definition doesn't mention external energy, either.]

Sile

Fair. It's not a gift for you though, you are a gift for it. Trying to control genies is notoriously prone to backfiring.

In the Tibetan (and Native American, etc.) way, you make a deal with the genie to keep the peace.

Sile

In Identity, Ritual and State, Martin Mills describes "external rlung" as a feature of the environment which manifests inside a person as "bodily rlung," providing a human with "energy, and (crucially)...forging the link between mind and body, thus rendering the person alive. The collapse of bodily rlung was also the collapse of sparkha, of life-force itself, severing the relationship between body and mind."

http://bit.ly/L79f7U

Sile

In his discussion with physicist David Bohm, His Holiness the Dalai Lama explains:

“According to Buddhist explanation, the ultimate creative principle is consciousness. There are different levels of consciousness. What we call innermost subtle consciousness is always there. The continuity of that consciousness is almost like something permanent, like the space particles. In the field of matter, that is the space particles; in the field of consciousness, it is clear light…The clear light, with its special energy makes the connection with consciousness.”

From a great explanation of the Tibetan concept of rlung, here:

http://mechoktsewang.blogspot.com/2011/08/rlung-and-its-relation-to-our-mind-in.html