Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Finally realized what the obstacle is which was getting in the way of further progress with practice
zenmyste
Veteran
This is what I need to know;
Is there a difference between these 5 things.
1. Enlightenment
2. Peace of 'mind'
3. 'Inner' peace
4. Liberation
5. Self-Realization
Ive realized that its this question which seems to be getting in the way of furthering my progress in practice, knowledge and life.
I feel that the reason some people (like me) hit a brick wall is because of everyones different versions and opinions on what Enlightenment or liberation is.. All the traditions have different opinions on what progress is, and people seem too attached to 'their own' tradition. But i would like to know 'your' thoughts about the 5 above..
If a 'Zen' master and 'Theravada' Master both met, would they disagree on what Enlightenment actually is?
Therefore would they both think the other is not fully enlightened, just because their tradition says different?
So then my question arises;
Is there a difference between these 5.
Is there a difference between these 5 things.
1. Enlightenment
2. Peace of 'mind'
3. 'Inner' peace
4. Liberation
5. Self-Realization
Ive realized that its this question which seems to be getting in the way of furthering my progress in practice, knowledge and life.
I feel that the reason some people (like me) hit a brick wall is because of everyones different versions and opinions on what Enlightenment or liberation is.. All the traditions have different opinions on what progress is, and people seem too attached to 'their own' tradition. But i would like to know 'your' thoughts about the 5 above..
If a 'Zen' master and 'Theravada' Master both met, would they disagree on what Enlightenment actually is?
Therefore would they both think the other is not fully enlightened, just because their tradition says different?
So then my question arises;
Is there a difference between these 5.
0
Comments
Alps and mountains, Rockies and Himalayas....
same things.
If the Zen and Therevada monk disagree or agree, won't help you any bit further. Their ideas of enlightenment will still be a finger pointing to the moon for you. Same if I started adding my ideas.
My guess is that their realization would put them beyond quibbling and arguing over words and concepts.
They would recognize something which goes deeper.
They’d have a heart-to-heart connection.
Because then, there is the answer.
If them 5 things are 'not' the same then i feel i can move foward.
I feel i have found a path to be at peace.. I feel like i can have ''peace of mind'' but i dont feel like i have attained enlightenment because i dont know what enlightenment is because its different to each person and tradition. So how can one know if hes enlightened if we cant agree on what enlightenment is?
But this is where i am at the minute;
For me personally, i would take away 1. 3. 4. and 5.
and then im left with number 2. 'Peace of mind'
I believe that i have found a path to give me 'peace of mind'
And i dont necessarily worry about 'enlightenment'
But then the reason i hit a brick wall sometimes, is because then people say 'peace of mind' isnt the complete end in buddhism etc etc.. AND then it hits me, maybe it was Buddhism and other 'buddhists' which were 'keeping me' from gaining Peace of mind, all because, i was always wanting that 'little bit extra' because other buddhist would tell me i havent gained anything yet because the sutra says this, or because buddha said that...
And i was finding myself getting LOST in the whole practice, until finally i found a path (yes, through buddhism/zen and meditation) which let me experience 'peace of mind' and im happy with it.
So i just wanted to ask everyone here what their opinon was on what will probably be my last Question on here. :-)
I feel like if the top 5 'are' the same. Then i must have gained enlightenment. ;-)
because i have found a path where im at peace with mind.
(of course i dont believe i am enlightened, im not saying i am) but all im saying is that i have found a path where panic and anxiety have GONE) and i can just BE and LIVE my life finally as it is...
Therefore, maybe Enlightenment is impermanent, Some days we could be enlightened, some days we're not.
Also, what the Buddha considers "awakening" is more precisely Stage 5 and 6 and onwards.
2. Peace of 'mind'/Inner peace can just be a state of calmness or a shamatha (calm-abiding) state where thoughts and attachments are temporarily dropped off or suppressed. This is a temporary state and does not necessarily entail any kind of insight or realization. Therefore it is NOT enlightenment. However it is also an important support along the path for the development of true wisdom leading to liberation.
Inner peace/tranquility is the fifth factor of the seven factors of enlightenment, by no means to be equated with enlightenment itself.
3. Same as 2.
4. Enlightenment is not necessarily liberation. Liberation in Buddhism entails liberation from all defilements, attachments, and the cycle of birth and death in samsara - the world of suffering. Suffering completely stops in liberation. I could equate Thusness Stage 5 enlightenment with say, stream entry, but it still takes practice - from stream entry to non-returner and arahat for the total elimination of all attachments, taints, defilements, fetters, etc preventing full liberation from suffering. It is like a jug - you can throw away the contents (e.g. a large chunk of afflictions gone after an initial awakening), but the smell can still linger and requires further purification to remove the subtle 'taints' or leftovers.
5. Self-Realization is often used to describe the I AM realization described in the link above, though not always the case.
Any passing states are therefore not realization or liberation. It is like once learning to walk you never forget... once you see through delusion, it does not get unseen, even though remaining taints can still linger - and with the destruction of that, there is no more returning to suffering.
If you really found peace of mind, how can people - telling you that it is not Enlightenment - disturb you?
Just curious.
But it depends not so much on tradition (a tradition itself can have many different understandings among its adherents), but on the individual person's own realization and experience. If they are similar, they see eye to eye. If not, then no.
Agitation is unhelpful for the path towards enlightenment. But neither is laziness. Therefore apply Right Effort - one of the factors of the noble eightfold path.
The Buddha says:
And what, monks, is right effort?
(i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen:
This, monks, is called right effort. That is very good for you.
Peace of mind is more of a quality of shamatha. For enlightenment, it requires some form of insight practice - all traditions have them. It is a form of meditative practice that investigates the nature of dharma so that realization can arise. Both shamatha and insight are important for enlightenment.
Its a natural part of life!
We're all gonna get sick and die.
(Oh and a little secret but don't tell anyone, .....even buddha got sick and died too)
Shhh! ;-)
Nothing lasts!!
But what I'm saying is that I have found a way, to gain peace of mind again and again, even when something does distract or disturb me..and I can do this through having a certain practice!
Best wishes!
Zenmyste.
Maybe it's a bit like that, so often stuff that's difficult to conceptualise is described in the negative, i.e. it's not suffering.
Just for interest the Bible does this too, it says "God wipes away the tears", but doesn't offer more than that (I'm not Christian, nor do I believe in a god deity; I'm just saying that some concepts are difficult or impossible to realise without the experience of them.).
And there is a school of thought that Enlightenment is pretty much exaggerated:
Good words!
I like this post too. Sometimes you've got to be free to be stupid, wrong, mistaken. Otherwise you've become a professional apologist for yourself, even if you are calling yourself 'Buddhism'.
Abu
My impression is that you pick and choose teachings and authors to fit your own preferences, so I would not do the research for you.
Suffice it to say that enlightenment does not come and go, what comes and goes is not yet it.
Please feel free to continue your regularly scheduled programme however
Best wishes,
Abu
Abu
Metta!
A Zen practitioner said to a Theravada practitioner that enlightenment is not a thing, but an absence. Absence of greed, hatred, and delusion.
The Theravada was totally agree with that.
Off-topic tit-for-tat discussion posts deleted.
Please keep to topic, and don't use the forum as a platform to air your views about personal opinions regarding traditions or teachers - unless of course, that's the topic.
(And I advise further caution if anyone should perceive that as a prompt or hint to begin one... )
If you wish to argue the virtues or otherwise of personal matters, take it to PMs.
That's all that needs saying, no response required.
Thanks.
*Back to topic.*
Think of a wind up soldier who marches as the clockwork mechanism unwinds - an observer sees the most important thing the toy is doing as marching, but really, the marching is just a side effect of the unwinding. What we call 'self' is this side effect.
Achieved is the end of craving.”
(Dh.153-154 “Udana Vatthu”)
And what, bhikkhus, is craving?
There are these six classes of craving:
craving for forms (sights),
craving for sounds,
craving for odours,
craving for tastes,
craving for tactile objects,
craving for mental constructions.
This is called craving.
“Monks, there are four (modes of) clinging.
Which four?
Sensuality clinging,
view clinging,
habit-&-practice (rites & rituals) clinging, and
doctrines-of-the-self clinging.”
(MN 11)
He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.
Kaccayanagotta Sutta
This state of complete freedom from craving should be unshakeable and completely independent of what others do or say.
Fresh air!
Thanks @pegembara
Feelings are impermanent. They come and go.
Therefore enlightenment is impermanent.
There is no such thing as a permanent feeling or state.
(My opinion)
"Everything is impermanent"
The quote says it all. You can't pick and choose what's impermanent. Either everything is, or 'everything isn't'..
In Buddhism, enlightenment is neither a feeling nor an understanding nor a state
Best wishes,
Abu
PS And to CLARIFY, I think your understanding is fine, I am just saying that the Buddhist approach is somewhat different. Enjoy yourself.