Remembering past lives?

Bodhivaka

I've read that the Buddha came to a remembrance of all his past lives when he became enlightened; I have a difficult time understanding that because scientifically, we know memories are stored within the temporal lobe and hippocampus portions of the brain. If one went through rebirth, he or she would have a new brain, and would therefore be completely devoid of memories contained within the previous brain (that's how I understand it, anyway.)

Therefore, what is it that retains an individuals memories when it transfers from one brain to the next? Could not this memory retaining essence be classified as the self (I ask because this question was ultimately brought to my attention when considering the concept of anatta)?

Jeffrey

In Buddhism the mind is codependently arisen rather than dependently arisen. So the mind and brain are together rather than the form causing the mental.

Just as the form skhanda can change so can the mental. The mental skhanda we can learn a new language. Changing form skhandas could be growing a beard or even becoming reborn as someone else.

The personality sort of stuff of the mind also do not transfer over exactly. But just tendancies.

It's all a mystery.

federica

Somebody asked HH The DL if he could remember his past lives, so in response he threw a date at the interviewer... maybe not the one I'm quoting, but you'll get the gist...

"what", he asked the interviewer, "were you doing on the 19th of May 1982?"
The inteviewer confessed he could not recall...
The DL gave one of his customary infectious peals of laughter, and asked, "If we cannot remember a day in this lifetime, how can we possibly recollect all past lifetimes?

If you wish to know what you were, look at your body, now.
If you wish to know what you will be, look at your Mind now."

That's all I ponder, and that's more than enough for my little brain to cope with....

(Remember 'Mind' is different to 'Brain').

how

In monasteries where past lives are a common part of the lexicon, the experience of past lives are not unheard of. In monasteries where past lives are not a common part of the lexicon, it only comes up as historical info..

I should state that I've had numbers of past & future lives arise and who knows if they are real or some form of wish fulfilment. All of them were pretty unsettling experiences of poor beings regretting mistakes that they made but the main significance of them for me was how likely it was that I could also make those same mistakes. Their outward appearances were not known to me but their emotional/mental make up and mine was very familiar.

The big problem with past lives, like anything in a Buddhist practise is the clinging and the suffering that it can cause. In my school it was something to observe as one would with anything else in meditation, neither holding onto it or pushing it away. Not fiddling with it's birth, life or passing.
I don't think the manifestation of past lives arises as a meditative accomplishment, just the outcome of being receptive to one's inherited karma. It's reasonably debateable if that is a help or a hindrance in one's practise. I have certainly met Buddhists who have fostered a sense of identity with their experiences of past lives, which certainly turned them into hindrances.

Sabre

If memories are stored in the brain, can you show me one?

Memories exist only in the mind, not in the brain.

Of course there is a relation there, but it is not as easy as science wants to present it.

SattvaPaul

Certain Buddhist traditions posit the existence of a level of consciousness which stores impressions (so called karmic seeds). This consciousness is not limited to one life, and also is not limited to self.

There are people who seem to remember past lives. There has been at least one serious attempt to document such cases, by Dr. Ian Stevenson.

There are some people who try to reconcile Buddhist views on consciousness with science. They often challenge the foundations of the materialist view (mind as the emergent property of brain). Consciousness is still a mystery for science.

But how it really works is anybody's guess.

Bodhivaka

If memories are stored in the brain, can you show me one?

Memories exist only in the mind, not in the brain.

Of course there is a relation there, but it is not as easy as science wants to present it.

Yes, I believe you've raised a valid point. Scientists have observed increased activity in particular regions of the brain during the act of "remembering," as well as memory loss in people who have suffered damage to the frontal lobes or hippocampus. Therefore, is it not fair to conclude that memories are stored in (or at least depend on) the frontal lobes and hippocampus, seeing as how individuals lose such memories when these brain regions are damaged?

Why do people loose some level of access to the "mind" when the brain is damaged? Why does the mind depend on the brain to be utilized if it's a distinct entity? What is the relationship between the mind and the brain -- are they co-dependant on one another to function properly?

I don't know if Buddhism has answers to these questions, but I appreciate any input someone might have.

SattvaPaul

I've heard it described with the radio analogy. The brain is like a radio and mind is like radio waves. If you break the radio, you don't hear anything but the transmission is still going on.

Bodhivaka

I've heard described with the radio analogy. The brain is like a radio and mind is like radio waves. If you break the radio, you don't hear anything but the transmission is still going on.

I really like that analogy. It also works well to explain that just because the waves can't be used by the radio when it breaks doesn't mean the waves aren't there, it's simply that the tool which is used to hear the waves is broke.

That makes me wonder if there is any sense of awareness or thought during that short period of time between consciousness leaving this form and taking on another one.

SattvaPaul

The Tibetan tradition speaks of an intermediate state called bardo.

how

I think it is a huge assumption that time is even linear with such an event or that consciousness even continues in a way that we would think of as homogeneous.

Bodhivaka

I think it is a huge assumption that time is even linear with such an event or that consciousness even continues in a way that we would think of as homogeneous.

That's a great point. Who's to say the essence we call "mind" or "consciousness" is subject to time and space when disconnected (or perhaps even when connected) to the brain? I suppose I was too caught up in the radio analogy, thinking that just because radio waves travel within the realms of time and space, mind "matter" must do likewise. Thanks for bringing that to my attention

Jeffrey

And you couldn't say where the radio show *is*. It is dependently origination of scripts, waves, antenna, radio parts, etc..

How do you think at all when you read this? How do you know one thing goes after another?

Bodhivaka

And you couldn't say where the radio show *is*. It is dependently origination of scripts, waves, antenna, radio parts, etc..

How do you think at all when you read this? How do you know one thing goes after another?

Very true. I suppose the old philosophical statement "cognito ergo sum" (I think; therefore, I am) isn't quite as certain as I once thought.

Do you believe the consciousness is able to fully function without a physical brain, or is it a purely instinctive entity supported solely by craving, only able to utilize its other aspects when connected to a physical brain? Perhaps that would explain why living organisms which don't possess
a brain are purely instinctive creatures, devoid of any apparent emotion, analytical thought, etc?

pegembara

The Buddha acquired 3 knowledges. It is the 3rd knowledge which should be of most interest to the practising Buddhist for after realising no. 3 who would bother about how the other 2 are acquired. For in his 1st and 2nd sermon to the five ascetic companions that led to their liberation, there was no mention of past lives. Only the 4NT, N8FP and the 3 marks (84000 doors)

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/buddha.html#awakening

Bodhivaka

Well, through a lot of contemplation, a bit of research, and the very helpful comments posted on this thread, I've come to the following conclusions concerning the mind-body relationship, the mind-brain relationship, and the state of the mind during bodily transference:

Mind-Body Relationship

Mind, or consciousness, is the immaterial essense which serves as the intelligence, emotion, and life-force of a living organism; nevertheless, the importance of the body in regards to the mind should not be discarded, as the existence of the mind is equally dependant on a physical form. Concerning this co-dependency, the Nalakalapiyo Sutta records the Venerable Sariputta as saying:

It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another...If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.

Therefore, in regards to mind and body, if either is without the other, death is the inevitable result for both entities.

Mind-Brain Relationship

The relationship between the mind and the physical brain may be compared to a radio which interprets the incoming audio waves. Just as the radio is a tool by which the audio waves are heard and understood, so is the physical brain a tool by which the information contained in the mind is heard and understood.

Depending on the quality of your radio, you may or may not be able to get clear reception and more stations; likewise, depending on the quality of your brain, you may or may nor be able to utilize the intellectual, analytical, or emotive qualities of the mind. For living organisms which have no brain, the mind serves as nothing more than a fundamental life-force to the body, and vise versa.

Mind Without Body

Seeing as how the mind is dependant on a physical body to exist, it must be understood how the mind can exit a dying organism and travel to a new body without being destroyed from lack of a physical form. The answer to this question can be found on DhammaWiki's (www.dhammawiki.com) article on rebirth, which states:

The Buddha taught that the force propelling the mind into a new body is craving (tanhà), specifically the craving for pleasure, for identity and the craving to live.

Therefore, upon leaving a dead body and traveling to a new one, the only force keeping the mind alive is craving, suggesting that during this short period of bodily transference, the mind is reduced to a purely instinctive entity, solely driven and supported by craving; hence, when one extinguishes craving, one destroys the force by which the mind is propelled into a new body upon the death of the old one, causing it to cease to exist -- this state of non-existence is what we would call Nibbana.

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That's the the way I understand it, anyway. I'm open to being corrected on anything I may have gotten wrong.

Dakini

Therefore, what is it that retains an individuals memories when it transfers from one brain to the next? Could not this memory retaining essence be classified as the self (I ask because this question was ultimately brought to my attention when considering the concept of anatta)?

It's a very subtle aspect of mind that transfers. And yes, it could be called the self, HIndus call it the self. Buddhists don't. IMO it's splitting hairs to not call it the self, but I'm sure everyone will disagree with me. But this is the conclusion I've come to. It's the same thing by another name.

DairyLama

I've read that the Buddha came to a remembrance of all his past lives when he became enlightened;

What strikes me about these accounts is that the Buddha only had access to these memories at the point of enlightenment.

SattvaPaul

I've read that the Buddha came to a remembrance of all his past lives when he became enlightened;

What strikes me about these accounts is that the Buddha only had access to these memories at the point of enlightenment.

What is striking about that?

JohnG

If you wish to know what you were, look at your body, now.
If you wish to know what you will be, look at your Mind now."

Oh oh ...... I'm screwed. :eek:

DairyLama

I've read that the Buddha came to a remembrance of all his past lives when he became enlightened;

What strikes me about these accounts is that the Buddha only had access to these memories at the point of enlightenment.

What is striking about that?

Well if that's really the way it is, then many of the people who remember past lives are presumably delusional.

SattvaPaul

Many of them probably are. But generally even in the strongest cases, people don't recall all details from a previous life, only some specifics like names of towns, or the way they died, or they will have some sort of emotional reaction towards for example the previous parent. Nothing like tha Buddha's recall of full details of countless lives.

sova

If memories are stored in the brain, can you show me one?

Strongest!

Jeffrey

If memories are stored in the brain, can you show me one?

Strongest!

he vants brains vile I vant bloood

Songhill

This is from Zen master Bassui. This is about the knowing of past lives.

“From the moment you realize your inherent nature, your mind will penetrate through aeons of emptiness that preceded creation through to the endless future. Clear and independent, it will not attach itself to the changing phenomena of life and death, past and future, but will remain constant without obstructing doubts. This is the power of knowning past lives” (Mud & Water, p. 38).

As the reader can observe, knowing of past lives is not to be taken at a literal level. All the powers rest on our apprehension of the unborn Mind. Bassui is one kewl dude.

Telly03

I found this article interesting on how our memories are reliably unreliable which is necessary to imagine a future

http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2012/07/ideas-bank/your-memories-are-made-to-be-reliably-unreliable

DairyLama

As the reader can observe, knowing of past lives is not to be taken at a literal level.

You can interpret it how you want, but in the suttas it comes across as very literal.