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How does a full realization change life? Is concentration necessary?
So the seeking ends- and that's a relief... But a full realizations yet to be experienced.
I no longer obsess, but I'm curious.. If this is it, and I'm settling into that comfortably now, please tell me - what will a full realization change? How will it change this life, this body? Will I really not crave stuff anymore (like sugar which is my vice
I'm sure the experience is not describable- I've had those and know there aren't words-- but what will it actually Change in my life? Hopefully it will make this the last go-round for me yes-- other than that and maybe being able to help others more so- what's the point? I guess I've lost desire even for this and am now just floating about wondering if it's even necessary?
And in another thread someone said something like Only great meditators realize this-- and I do not consider myself a great meditator at all- no exceptional concentration at all hahah!
Does one need excellent concentration for a full realization? If so I'm outta luck ! So no worries then;) I trip over it or not then...
What does one do at this stage? Forget about it and enjoy life seems right- but the curiosity lingers.
Thanks for any info guys:):):)
I no longer obsess, but I'm curious.. If this is it, and I'm settling into that comfortably now, please tell me - what will a full realization change? How will it change this life, this body? Will I really not crave stuff anymore (like sugar which is my vice
I'm sure the experience is not describable- I've had those and know there aren't words-- but what will it actually Change in my life? Hopefully it will make this the last go-round for me yes-- other than that and maybe being able to help others more so- what's the point? I guess I've lost desire even for this and am now just floating about wondering if it's even necessary?
And in another thread someone said something like Only great meditators realize this-- and I do not consider myself a great meditator at all- no exceptional concentration at all hahah!
Does one need excellent concentration for a full realization? If so I'm outta luck ! So no worries then;) I trip over it or not then...
What does one do at this stage? Forget about it and enjoy life seems right- but the curiosity lingers.
Thanks for any info guys:):):)
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Comments
Enjoy!
Life inherently appears to be the process of change.
An answer maybe "everything and nothing"!
Do you need good concentration (jhana) for this? There are some arguments about this; not all teachers agree. Also: I personally think it is different for all people, because we are all different. However, I think most need quite some concentration, because we are so caught in ideas and views that only can be seen through with deep meditation. Also, to be able to have deep meditation is a direct result of being able to let go, which in term is needed to let go of the self view. So it's not like one leads to the other, it's all one process.
But -and this is most important- you can only start where you are. Don't worry about the future also means, don't worry about stages and insights. They will never be how you imagine them, anyway.
I personally found it useful to know a bit about how the path can develop, but, reflecting on it with a view of "that's all intersting and stuff, but I don't crave for it". Having a point of view of non-craving is of course the most fruitful thing.
However, that's no reason to "Forget about it and enjoy life", because if you do that, you can be sure you'll not expience them and will get entangled in worldy problems.
Metta!
However, i think i have finally realized something which is very important; ''THE WAY DOESNT REQUIRE CULTIVATION - JUST DONT POLLUTE IT...''
Searching for this, searching for that, seeking, seeking, seeking and wanting more knowledge on buddhism or 'the way' - all this only brings more suffering.. (My opinion anyway)
Another thing ive only just noticed lately is that my 3 year old Son actually used to be enlightened, before his mummy and daddy and school teachers started influencing him with this and that and what we think is right and wrong etc etc.. (which is normal of course - apart of growing up, but now it makes sense if we could truely just remove all the crap which have been rammed into our minds - remove it all - and we're back where we started in the first place. Enlightened
Before kids understand the influence which we have on them - theyre Enlightened..
For me, Enlightenment is something we lose - not gain..
Also, when you ask; How does a full realization change life?
No one here will know.
All they can tell you is what a scripture says ?
But scriptures are just words.. Hear-say..
If you want the answer to your question, you will have to attain Full Realization yourself.
""Don't worry about the future also means, don't worry about stages and insights. They will never be how you imagine them, anyway.""
This is key, a reminder I needed -thank you:)
ZenMyste-yes isn't that neat about kids! It's like we can watch them as babies begin to identify with the body, then slowly as they learn a name and a 'me' idea and begin to create a self-identity that is being conditioned day by day.. but we cant stop it thats just life! We can only hope they (and ourselves) will remember the unconditioned someday! We all have to go through the delusion..
but when you say " No one here will know" I definitely think otherwise.. I have read some posts and am pretty sure there's some very clear people on here.. and why wouldnt they use their wisdom to chime in once in a while and help others?
I think enlightenment is not the huge deal that we believe it is at first-- and the further we go on the path the more we see that.. Its not just gurus and famous people- its all of us eventually anyway!
Much much metta!
I think there is a difference between being clear on something and fully understanding that something..
This is key, indeed. I've seen some people and sites on the internet, who are totally obsessed with stages, fruits, models of insight. And they forget the most important thing is that suffering comes from craving; craving to be 'enlightened' is craving as well. Often the best practice is to just be aware and let go of what we are clinging to. In a way it'll all take care of itself if you let it.
But craving to be free is different from desire to be free. Desires can be wholesome. So if you've lost the desire to practice, effort is not there. There are different ways to arouse some effort, the best is seeing suffering. But at these times you can also read a bit of suttas on enlightened beings and stages of the path, or listen to dhamma talks etc. It could give rise to some faith or desire to practice more.
So sometimes, when practice is a bit slack, or we need some sense of direction, it can be useful to reflect on what may lie ahead. However, don't get caught up in it. And have the "not sure" attitude when needed.
Metta!
Whats your definition of Fully realized or enlightened then?
Because i bet everyone on here still 'suffers' to some degree ..
(or do you believe being enlightened is something different?)
Just for consideration, to maybe be a bit less polarized. Also to know it isn't all or nothing
Metta!
and again, i think theres a difference from someone whos experienced and a fully enlightened person.
Also you didnt exactly answer my question;
You wrote my 'definition' of fully realized would be someone who's had a full/final realization''
That isnt a definition.
I asked you what is your definition of a fully realized or enlightend person?
Apart from these 'stages' which comes from a specific tradition and ''hear-say sutras'' that are only words.., i would be interested in what YOU define as Enlightenment?
And if your definition is only based on what a tradition says it is, how do you know if its a fact or not if you havent experienced enlightenment yourself?
(or have you?)
Also, Do you think an enlightened person still suffers? or Have they ended their suffering? Because like i said 'i believe everyone on here suffers to 'some' degree'
I think that enlightenment is a process but a full/final realization is --Oneness-- when there isn't even a 'you' to 'have' an experience.. And I suppose even after that our clarity continues to deepen perhaps?
But this oneness experience occurs After other realizations (stage 1-3) when our understanding is still deepening as well.. But whatever:) those are my thoughts- we may all be one but we have to travel the path alone -no explanation will realize anything for us right!
I think suffering certainly lessens as we go down our path and see their is no self- but
re the complete cessation of suffering I have no idea but can't wait to find out!
Peace:)
I personally dont think that would even be healthy state if im being honest..
My goal is just to stay 'me' but to be able to accept all that happens in my life without mentally suffering. , i want there to be a 'me' so i can feel and experience my experiences in life.
but just i no longer mentally suffer.
I want to be able to ''accept the things i cannot change, have the courage to change the things i can but have the wisdom to know the difference..''
(i guess im not your average 'buddhist') :-)
Im the kind of person who loves buddhism but my ultimate goal and ideas are not necessarily the same as other buddhists. lol
Nice talking to you. and good luck x x
<<Suz1 said:
a full/final realization is --Oneness-- when there isn't even a 'you' to 'have' an experience.>>
Zenmyste said: " I hope not.
I personally dont think that would even be healthy state if im being honest.. "
LOL I didnt think of it that way! I guess it does sound crazy like we wont be 'us' but since its that sense of 'me' that is causing the suffering, then how wonderful to drop the whole idea! I dont see it as a 'state' though... I dont know what it'll be like, I'm clueless:)
But luckily we're all on our way and lucky to be human;) So nice talking to you as well, best wishes on your journey! Take good care:):)
into
total ease, complete calm, absolute freedom, perfect happiness & pure peace…
Absence of any uncertainty, doubt, confusion, any delusion and all ignorance…
Presence of confidence, certainty, understanding all, and direct experience…
Absence of any greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, hunger, and temptation…
Presence of imperturbable and serene composure in an all stilled equanimity…
Absence of all hate, anger, aversion, hostility, irritation, & stubborn rigidity…
Presence of universal goodwill: An infinite & all-embracing friendly kindness… Yes. And no you are not out of luck! Anyone can develop concentration just by doing meditation practice. And all you really have to do is just sit there and breath in and out.
I will continue to practice- and I do believe my concentration can improve- its just that after a lifetime of ADD /distraction- I'm not sure it's my temperament or nature really?(but this year I do see changes- like a 'downshift' feeling - more 'distance' from thoughts- but I never learned to label states or jhanas or anything but there is a new change:)
Can I ask though- Im curious re absence of anxiety- thinking of a practical example- but if I spent my lifetime w extreme anxiety re public speaking-- would even that be seen thru? I've found that my general anxiety has lessened immeasurably but if I have to talk in front of others- I feel the deeply conditioned physical reactions of butterflies etc... And I lose my train of thought immediately ( which I suppose concentration will help )
.. So I mean a full realization doesn't change stuff of that nature lol?? That would still take practice?
Thank you:)
Before one can explore what a full realisation can achieve, one should define clearly what is meant by a 'full realisation' and then consider the personal relationship with it.
Gosh I wish I had a teacher to sit down with because this does make sense to me but I know it probably sounds crazy:)
Or will a full realization just happen when one is ready, either IN meditation or NOT during meditation?
Thanks so much!! have a great weekend:)
If so that is good news and far simpler than I had started to concern myself with:)!!
Course what about when the breath becomes so subtle that you don't feel it? That's new for me this year but has been happening at times..
A few times even the body seems like nothing is there - but it's funny cause I wouldn't even label it pleasant- its like neutral...
Anyway- I need to quit pondering a full realization as an experience I know:) it's been on the mind lately, then it's gone for a while ( which is nice as I used to be obsessed)..
Thank you so much for your help! I imagine you are a wonderful teacher:)
"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/index.html
Fantasizing about what might happen in the future, is a form of craving. And that's exactly the source of suffering. That's why the Buddhist path isn't about having some grandeur realizations, but it really is about letting go of craving. Whatever may result from that, you'll see later.
Samadhi (often translated as concentration, but that doesn't really hit the right tone, so I prefer to call it tranquility) is in itself letting go. So it in itself is a result and part of the practice. So that way, you can not really ask if you 'need' it. It's like asking does a guitar player need music..?
So it's something you'll develop naturally as the path progresses. It can get really deep and peaceful, so peaceful and still, you will not want to look at anything else except the breath at that moment. Then the breath can take you further if you let it. If at any point it isn't stable and peaceful yet, find out why. That's your craving right there, that's what you have to work with.
Metta!
I like this little explanation from a Thai forest monk, Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo
Seeker242 you've helped a lot thank you:)
With a bow, Suzanne
"Enlightenment is not something you achieve. It is the absence of something. All your life you have been going forward after something, pursuing some goal. Enlightenment is dropping all that" (Joko Beck).
This is quite laughable.
Nirvana is exactly unbinding from clinging to conditioned phenomena.
As such it is unborn, undying, deathless, unconditioned, beyond "the world".
I agree with everything else you say, just not how you think of Nirvana.
Honestly it seems like you reify Nirvana, making it out to be something of itself that you directly experience, rather than the experience of emptiness and resultant non-craving that follows. Nirvana is not something you're going to see in meditation, but the result of what you don't see (a self, permanence, anything to grasp).
We're rather close on our thinking other than this crucial point. That's something.
Realize Emptiness = Realize Buddha-Nature = Realize Nirvana
Go ahead and look for this Nirvana... when you see there's nothing there, that will be Nirvana.
The adept should not believe they know the "conditioned" in the first place. They should meditate to see the true nature of the conditioned, and seeing this emptiness they will let go and experience Nirvana. We think we know the world already and so we're seeking for something else, but we do *not* know the world. That is exactly why we are suffering, because we haven't penetrated the nature of "this". Just intellectually understanding that things are impermanent and not-self is not enough.
It's a moot point perhaps. If one spends their time looking for Nirvana in meditation, they still won't find it, and not finding it or anything else will lead to Nirvana. So meditation is the answer in this case. With that, I leave this conversation (if it's not clear by now, it won't become clear by talking about it).
"On account the fact that nibbana’s own nature is that of being unconditioned. For therein no trace, even, of conditioned dhammas is witnessed" (trans. Masefield).
On the other hand, seeing that conditioned things like the five skandhas are empty and barren is not nirvana. The adept has still not directly seen the unconditioned. He is still safeguarding the truth that nirvana is a positive attainable state.
And nibbana can be expressed in both postive and negative terms.
Have a look at this list:
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=33_synonyms_for_Nibbana
Western Buddhists who are self-deniers don't like to read the good stuff. It's too bad. Did you know that in 1939 the head of the state supported Samgharaja in Thailand published essays in which he argued that nirvana is the Self or atman? This was somewhat like the Pope admitting the Gnostic Christians were right.