If suffering is inevitable, how can we fully remove it? Should we just embrace it instead?

zenmyste

Ive read many times that the first noble truth is suffering is an inevitable part of life

Definition of inevitable = unavoidable

But then the truths go on to say that there is a way to end suffering?

Well which one is it?

Is suffering inevitable or not?
No one has to give me a lecture on why we suffer, because i know why..

Im only interested in wondering what your opinions are are this question; is suffering inevitable?

Many teachers and authors do think so, but then half way through their books they will completely contradict themselves and say we can end our suffering etc etc..

However; what if suffering is inevitable and by trying to end our suffering, maybe we're fighting a losing battle.. ?

(( It would be interesting to know how many years you have been practising buddhism and if your suffering has been removed? 'YES or NO?' ))

RebeccaS

I've been in and out of Buddhism for a few years... I've never decided to really go whole hog with it until recently though... And I still suffer. Yep, yep, yep.

The way I see it is that your body is still subject to suffering - age, sickness, injury - because that's the nature of the body, it's prone to those things because we're made of meat and we don't last forever.

I think the difference is that your perception of it changes... You'll still be aware of it if your body gets sick or injured (which could still be construed as suffering, certainly the suffering if your physical body, and I always felt that "life" in this quote was talking directly about life in this realm, on earth, with human bodies) but it won't give you mental or spiritual anguish.

Just a guess really, I have no idea what actually happens but I think the theory has potential.

Cloud

I rather take the First Noble Truth to be saying "there is suffering" (this is the problem to be dealt with), with the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering and the way leading to the cessation of suffering as the rest of the Four Noble Truths.

To take it to mean suffering is unavoidable would make the entire formulation not make sense, so don't take it that way.

In other words, think of them like:
1) This is the noble truth of Dukkha. (Then Dukkha needs explained in all its manifestations).
2) This is the noble truth of the Origin of Dukkha. (Which turns out to be Tanha, or Craving based on Ignorance.)
3) This is the noble truth of the Cessation of Dukkha.
4) This is the noble truth of the Way leading to the Cessation of Dukkha.

mithril

The way i understand is is suffering is something that happens to (or arises in) every one.

But every one has means to improve their situation.


For example, fire in the wilderness is something that arises. The way you try to put it out, for example, would be by pouring fluid over it. Buddhism here would be knowing gasoline from water. When you know how things are, you can do what is best in your situation. This does not mean that fire will cease to exist. It means that when it arises, you are mindful enough to avoid doing silly that would probably worsen your situation, even if it has by then become habit. You become mindful, and even though there is a bucket of gasoline just next to you, you don't quickly take it and try to extinguish the fire like you "usually do". You go get water, and it doesn't matter that it is farther away on the hot road then was the gasoline.

Buddhism is as explained, only that it covers all perception, not only touch, smell and sight like in the example with the fire, but also more subtle things like thoughts and emotions.

Arthurbodhi

"Pain in life is inevitable but suffering is not. Pain is what the world does to you, suffering is what you do to yourself. Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

I agree with this.

Full text:

http://buddhistsangha.tripod.com/noblepath2.htm

Sabre

Suffering is a part of life, yes. And that's the thing. Suffering can be avoided by finding a way out of birth and death. That's why nibbana is often called "the deathless" in the suttas.

But a lot of suffering is mind made. We create it, as Arthurbodhi said before. This suffering can be overcome in this life.

Also, it's not just suffering vs not suffering. There are also graduations between. It's not like you totally fail or you totally win. You can also be in between. And so, while there is more to go, the dhamma has certainly helped me to let go of a big lot of suffering in life already.

seeker242

Ive read many times that the first noble truth is suffering is an inevitable part of life

Definition of inevitable = unavoidable

But then the truths go on to say that there is a way to end suffering?

Well which one is it?

Why can't it be both? Suffering is inevitable when the cause of it is present, which just so happens to be the case with most people. However, if the cause of suffering is gone, how can it continue?

JohnG

So suffering is the educational part of our life in the pursuit of perfection?

Jeffrey

Without entanglement in samsara there can be no escape. Without dukkha there is no sukkha. You can't fake out dukkha and get to sukkha. Dukkha is not a game. The bodhisattva has learned dukkha is not a game along with stability in peace which opens the feeling Body of the Buddha to reach them. With these resources they may reach sentient beings (alive).

Cloud

And of course sukkha is also dukkha in subtle form.

pegembara

Difficulties (aging, sickness, separation & death) are unavoidable but suffering is optional.

The 1st NT states that there is suffering, not that suffering is inevitable. If suffering was unavoidable, there would be no escape from samsara!

"Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html

DairyLama

The 1st NT states that there is suffering, not that suffering is inevitable. If suffering was unavoidable, there would be no escape from samsara!

Yes. Though suffering is inevitable while ignorance persists.

driedleaf

Modern science can make birth less painful, slow the aging process, eliminate most diseases, increase our lifespan, but it can never completely control it. This part of suffering is unavoidable. We're not fighting a losing battle because suffering starts inwardly, but outwardly we might be. I have practiced Buddhism for a long time, and still suffer through life, but I consider myself lucky to have learned Buddhism. My life has changed for the better because of Buddhism.

zenmyste

..My life has changed for the better because of Buddhism.

in what way?

driedleaf

After studying Buddhism for some time and deciding to follow it as a path, I was amazed at how there were answers for every question. There were questions that were stuck with me for some time, and I had just begun to see some light through Buddhism. I was satisfied with the answers and instructions, and so it became clear that this was the path I was to take. I have no idea what my life would have been like if I had not taken this path. Reflecting on anatta (not-self) during times of stress really helped me. I felt that no matter how much suffering I had to go through, I kept in mind that I had made some merit it in the past. This was good enough to take for the remainder of my journey. I like the way Buddhism is most specific in its teachings. Cherishing life, enjoying its fruits, and keeping a good heart, this was the way that sounded most correct to me.

FullCircle

Zenmyste-I totally understand wanting someone to be able to explain this to you- but as frustrating as it is- the only way you will truly see is by looking in .. Every answer is in you - find a good teacher and sit -
It seems like you want some awakening stories which is understandable too- neat stuff to hear how it goes... But they won't make sense until you see for yourself anyway- which is partly why most people don't share their stories.. Adyashanti is a well known teacher who talks about his awakenings if you're interested:)
Best wishes!

ZendoLord84

I really this thread u started Zenmyste,

Letting go and embracing are kind of the same thing to me.

so yeah. Good point. Don't try to run from dukkha, it's impossible. When you become suffering itself and continue to practise. dukkha will become family. Sometimes family can drive you nuts, however, they are blood and therefore to be loved.

Dakini

The 1st Noble isn't that it's inevitable, simply that suffering happens. But the next 3 Noble Truths answer your question. The Dharma is the way out of suffering. The Dharma is the tool you can use to end the cycle of suffering. Without practicing the Dharma, suffering probably is inevitable.

Cloud

Identification with or attachment to the five aggregates, or conditioned phenomena, is really suffering itself. It's all-pervasive, it's "the world". Now that doesn't mean we can't be happy in a worldly sense, or that we'll even suffer enough to seek out an end of suffering (Buddhism). It just means for those who discern clearly, life is suffering. It's not really "inevitable", because that implies it's something that will come up later... it's right here and now; it is a fundamental characteristic of all conditioned phenomena (along with impermanence/anicca and not-self/anata/anatman).

I always thought the translation of the First Noble Truth into "life is suffering" was going a bit far or was somehow incorrect. I've been viewing it more as "there is suffering" for a while now... but think that was a mistake on my part. Dukkha is just a lot more subtle than we can see all at once.

Sabre

I always thought the translation of the First Noble Truth into "life is suffering" was going a bit far or was somehow incorrect. I've been viewing it more as "there is suffering" for a while now... but think that was a mistake on my part. Dukkha is just a lot more subtle than we can see all at once.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

This world is burning.
Afflicted by contact,
it calls disease a "self,"
for by whatever means it construes [anything],
that becomes otherwise from that.
Becoming otherwise,
the world is
held by becoming
afflicted by becoming
and yet delights
in that very becoming.
Where there's delight,
there is fear.
What one fears
is stressful.
This holy life is lived
for the abandoning of becoming.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.3.10.than.html

Beautiful.

DairyLama

I always thought the translation of the First Noble Truth into "life is suffering" was going a bit far or was somehow incorrect. I've been viewing it more as "there is suffering" for a while now... but think that was a mistake on my part. Dukkha is just a lot more subtle than we can see all at once.

Yes, I know what you mean - dukkha being all-pervasive - you know the 3 types of dukkha in the suttas?
A while back I came up with "all experience has the potential for suffering", but I'm not sure that fully captures the first Noble Truth either.

Mindfull

Yes we do suffer from the inside out, meaning we suffer within our own thoughts. I have been practising Buddhism for a little while now, and the day I accepted my suffering was caused from my delusional mind, was the day I saw the way out of my suffering, I'm way off from being at total peace within, but i now look from the outside in.

Dont try and want or crave the knowledge to end suffering, you will only continue to suffer, if you show compassion for others and understand how others suffer without owning there suffering, you will see the suffering within yourself start to become less significant.

Good luck on your journey to a peaceful mind, try not to rush the journey, slow down and live for the now, it's amazing what patience can do for ones self :-)

Beej

joy and pain are the same thing- they are just different sides of the same coin...

RebeccaS

A while back I came up with "all experience has the potential for suffering", but I'm not sure that fully captures the first Noble Truth either.

That's what I came up with, too. I'm also unsure that it really captures it.

I don't mind the translation though - life is suffering. I think it's kind of funny in its abruptness.

Sabre

Do you know this 'voice' in your head that sort of says "this sounds right"? Like a conscious, not about what's good and bad, but about what's correct?

Trust it Or at least, I found I can trust mine.