Dissociating craving versus being with it

Jeffrey

In my experience dealing with stress recently I have found that one response is to make sort of running commentary of Buddhist sayings. I know that sometimes 'this too shall pass' is a reservoire of strength. But the thing I am pointing out is that we can be in a dissociated state where we are passing wishful thinking rather than being with the stress. Looking for a way out. Like we are dampering the force of our suffering. Instead it may be that we have no idea how to get out of the stress. Meditate if you can, but it destablizes me. Perhaps that is why I am noticing (or 'just thinking' again). So with stress in meditation, truly destabilizing so I have to go gentle, with that on the table perhaps I have no way of knowing an out and just sit with no options. I guess the next run of my mind is to depict myself as noble for doing this. But really I think the lost feeling cannot be figured out. Like the paradox of trying to hard in meditation and fantasizing about great breakthroughs. Yeah what I am talking about is just sitting through stress without a hint of where to go.

taiyaki

If you sit with stress long enough it will tell you all the wonderful stories it needs to.

That does include insights as well. Eventually.

how

Hey Jeffrey
When I think of stress, I see the tensing of body and mind. When I find myself tense the usual remedy is to keep surrendering into the acceptance where ever I am for my mind while systematically relaxing any body commands that are tensing my muscles.
Your techniques sound quite cerebral and mantric. I know you have talked a lot about dealing with the voices in your head but I am wondering if its the form of meditation that you've chosen which is accentuating them?
If you are up for sharing?

DairyLama

But the thing I am pointing out is that we can be in a dissociated state where we are passing wishful thinking rather than being with the stress. Looking for a way out.

I know what you mean. Strategies for coping ( sidestepping? ) rather than directly experiencing the nature of suffering. It sometimes takes a lot of courage to accept the way things really are.

Jeffrey

@how, I do a couple meditations. Opening outward is the meditation given by my teacher and is the method Trungpa gave. I find that is quite destabilizing. Absorption on a visual is also an option. And feeling the the breath is another. All of those with counting or without. All of them returning back to the method whenever wandering.

The voices are always involved. If they are against meditation then it is hard to persist. In some days the voices are correct about destabilization. I think the voices are wrong sometimes though because I meditated 6 hours a day with the voices before and still they now get bent out of shape when I meditate 5 minutes.

Zenshin

@Jeffrey You know Jeff, I've been in hospital twice this year as a voluntary patient after an eight year gap.

Last night I focused on doing a lot of Metta practice and it lifted both my positive and negative symptoms.

I came across this today.

http://psychscoop.wordpress.com/2012/01/14/studies-metta-loving-kindness-meditation-can-ease-symptoms-of-schizophrenia/

And a more dry academic study here.

http://www.unc.edu/peplab/publications/Johnson et al 2011.pdf

I've done about two and a half hours of Metta practice today and at the moment I'm feeling the best I have done in over a year.

You might want to give it a try.

Jeffrey

Thanks @Lonely_Traveller, I may try that. Metta at the voices would be a bad idea as they wouldn't be agreeable to such treatment. I try to think positive thougths sometimes though.

how

I liked the metta suggestion of just patiently bathing the essense of those voices in love as they arrive.
But
I would not have questioned if your meditation practise was appropriate had I known you had a teacher.
What does destabilizing mean for you?

Jeffrey

@how, destabilizing means that my relationship to the voices is filled with random outbursts rather than control and composure.

how

Are you saying that destabilizing is where you become the voices rather than being an observer?

Jeffrey

No I am with a room filled with voices, both my thoughts and theirs. You can say they are me but in my experience I don't feel they are me. It would be like if you stood in a room talking to me you would not say that I was you, like solipsism.

When I meditate I raise in energy and I feel my body is vibrating. It's changed and now I have less of this energy from meditating, though as things have gone on and new medicines.

Arn

Hi Jeffrey,

I have been quite successful in quieting my inner voice by chanting mantras. I concentrate on the sound of my voice, or the sounds from my stereo and the act of listening brings about stillness. In particular after chanting for about 10 minutes the quiet afterwards is just exquisite! (http://www.devapremalmiten.com/cdsdvds/mantras-for-precarious-times).

Then I'm really interested in the value of staying with stress v's moving on from it/avoiding it. I'm thinking out loud here, but we should practice with wisdom and skill. So if you know something is stressful and the opportunity is there to avoid it or move on from it then why not do that? If there is a sharp tac on the floor where I normally sit for meditation, surely it would be skillful to remove the tac or sit to the side? Wanting to endure the pain (or stress) may be as much a craving as the desire to avoid it. Why should I avoid lack-of-pain if my mental state then has the opportunity to move on to higher practices? I dont see much benefit in replaying the experience of "this is painful/stressful".

taiyaki

It could be useful reciting the heart sutra everyday.

Also I would like to add another thought:

Both the thought we hear in our heads and the sounds we hear externally share the same space. In actuality internal and external are projections.

Both are equally insubstantial.

Hope you find refuge in the heart sutra my friend.