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How do you love your enemies?

RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
edited July 2012 in Buddhism Basics
Are there any suttas that pertain to this? Or does anyone have any personal experience with it?
«1

Comments

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    It's probably best to define what you mean by 'love' first. In Buddhism, to love someone is nothing more than the wish for them to be happy. That's it. It's not to be confused with any other type of love, and therefore, straight away the task at hand 'loving our enemies' becomes more realistic.

    A good start to this is to pray for the happiness of our enemies, and keep praying. After my Mother disowned me and 9 years passed without us contacting each other, when eventually I made the first contact she used to give me a really tough time. So what I used to do, before the dreaded phone call to her, was to pray for her happiness.

    Now I don't think for a moment that my prayer makes her happy, but what it did do was to adjust my psychological attitude towards her, so when she did try to give me a hard time or become argumentative, I didn't react badly back towards her.

    So, here's my tip, 'pray for your enemies', but I can think of lots more (such as the benefits of loving our enemies), but don't want to dominate this post and bore everyone! :D
  • Well... I'm not really sure what love is. I know romantic love, but that's not what I mean. I mean goodwill. Yes, their happiness. Nicely put.

    I like what you're saying about praying for their happiness, but that it doesn't actually change them. I don't want to change them, I want me to change.

    Please dominate and bore? :lol: I'd love to hear more from you if you have anything else.
  • Do not label things, they are not 'enemies', enemies is but a word, an illusion.

    What they might have done yesterday to become the word you give them, 'enemy'.
    is but an impermanent idea of what they are, there is no grasping in perfect emptiness.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    It's probably best to define what you mean by 'love' first. In Buddhism, to love someone is nothing more than the wish for them to be happy. That's it. It's not to be confused with any other type of love, and therefore, straight away the task at hand 'loving our enemies' becomes more realistic.

    A good start to this is to pray for the happiness of our enemies, and keep praying. After my Mother disowned me and 9 years passed without us contacting each other, when eventually I made the first contact she used to give me a really tough time. So what I used to do, before the dreaded phone call to her, was to pray for her happiness.

    Now I don't think for a moment that my prayer makes her happy, but what it did do was to adjust my psychological attitude towards her, so when she did try to give me a hard time or become argumentative, I didn't react badly back towards her.

    So, here's my tip, 'pray for your enemies', but I can think of lots more (such as the benefits of loving our enemies), but don't want to dominate this post and bore everyone! :D
    I'm not very clear who you are suggesting one pray to. Most Buddhists do not pray to Buddha since he is merely a man, and a dead one, at that. Does Buddha create miracles? To be honest, this sounds (to me) more like Christian advice.



  • @tosh

    you can pray for something to happen all you want, if prayer does have an effect it is on the one praying and never what it is they are praying for.

    Buddha compared prayers to the futility of people trying to make a huge boulder float up out of a deep pool of water simply by asking it politely.

  • @tosh

    yea i didnt read ur whole thing until after i typed that, sorry.. DOE!!!
  • SileSile Veteran
    There is a practice I find helpful--you visualize the people you already love, or feel close to and care about, and then feel yourself loving them; then you picture people you feel neutral about, and (try to) feel yourself extending the same love to them. Finally, you picture people you dislike or are angry at or consider enemies--feel yourself extending them the same love.

    If you have a hard time feeling compassion for them, think of the fact that they used to once be small, helpless babies who had never hurt anyone yet, that they might have experienced some pain or suffering in their lives that made them into unpleasant people, and that they might be experiencing pain right now when they're being unpleasant to you. Most people who treat others badly are not happy themselves, and are suffering in some way.

    But by practicing a lot on the neutral people, and then working out towards "lesser enemies," you can gradually build up love or at least compassion for people you see as greater enemies. The mind is just like the body - it needs exercise, warming up, conditioning, etc.

    Feeling compassion for your enemies doesn't mean you have to hang out with them, though ideally one could extend compassion so deeply and genuinely that you literally wouldn't feel any difference being in your "enemy's" presence than in the presence of your loved ones.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited July 2012
    I agree with @Sile , let me clarify a bit.

    How to love your enemies?
    Similar as your friends.

    Somebody said, Buddhist love (metta) is just wishing happiness, but I dont agree. An important part of metta is accepting people as they are, including all their faults and the bits and pieces you don't like. And because nobody is perfect, you can find those bits and pieces in everyone.

    If somebody has so little of those pieces that you can not see them, we usually call them best friends, or we marry them, or they are our direct family already. If somebody has many of those pieces or big pieces, we call them our enemy.

    But in the end, those pieces are just pieces. If you can accept small pieces, why can't you accept the big ones? First the problem of course is, that many people also can't really accept small faults/mistakes in others AND themselves. They don't like their looks, small parts of their behavior, their mindstates, their whatever. But that's where you have to start.

    You have to start small. Practicing metta is like lighting a fire. You start with the small grassy twigs that burn easily before you can put on the big logs. So to love yourself and people close to you is already partly loving your enemies. If you can throw on a big larger sticks, you can also have metta for people and animals neutral to you. You have to build the fire until you can throw on the big logs.

    This is the classical way of generating metta. Similar 'build up' strategies exist for compassion and empathetic joy. The key is to always start with things that 'burn' easily. This may even be a pet animal or something.

    Hope you can light up your fire to be a very big bonfire!

    Metta!
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    There is a practice I find helpful--you visualize the people you already love, or feel close to and care about, and then feel yourself loving them; then you picture people you feel neutral about, and (try to) feel yourself extending the same love to them. Finally, you picture people you dislike or are angry at or consider enemies--feel yourself extending them the same love.

    If you have a hard time feeling compassion for them, think of the fact that they used to once be small, helpless babies who had never hurt anyone yet, that they might have experienced some pain or suffering in their lives that made them into unpleasant people, and that they might be experiencing pain right now when they're being unpleasant to you. Most people who treat others badly are not happy themselves, and are suffering in some way.

    But by practicing a lot on the neutral people, and then working out towards "lesser enemies," you can gradually build up love or at least compassion for people you see as greater enemies. The mind is just like the body - it needs exercise, warming up, conditioning, etc.

    Feeling compassion for your enemies doesn't mean you have to hang out with them, though ideally one could extend compassion so deeply and genuinely that you literally wouldn't feel any difference being in your "enemy's" presence than in the presence of your loved ones.
    What you have described is a very nice exercise, and I commend you for the idea.

    I do however want to express that I think compassion is more than just feelings. To me, real compassion is when you really take an action on behalf of another person in their time of need.

    Right now, here in Colorado, we are reeling from the massacre up in Aurora at the movie theater. I hear people say that they have compassion for the shooter. I don't...because I would not do something to actually help the murderer of 12 people, including several children...the person who severely injured many other people...the person who took away from loved ones wives, husbands, lovers, sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, mothers, fathers, dear friends...the person who was so cruel that he also booby-trapped his apartment so that more first responders would die. I do have compassion for the victims. I would actually do something to help them if I knew something practical to do.

    Maybe compassion is a little easier for Christians since they can do something -- pray to God. But, to me, for a Buddhist, real compassion is measured when you actively do something for someone who is suffering. Anything short of that may just be making yourself feel good. Talk...and thoughts...are cheap.

    That's just my take on the concept of compassion.

  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited July 2012
    I wouldn't know where to begin with compassion for someone like that... That's why forgiveness is hard for me, I have it tangled up and confused with condoning what they've done. I think they can be separated, but I'm not sure how.

    Christians say love the sinner, hate the sin, but that doesn't really make much sense to me really. Hate never solved anything.

    There's a lot of practical advice here (thank you, everyone) because even as a new Buddhist I believe in prayer - looking for guidance from something greater than myself, the small ego self I'm identified with. I personally don't find that it's counter to my Buddhist beliefs, but I can understand why people feel more comfortable not praying.

    However I do agree with @vinlyn that compassion goes beyond feelings, and also that it goes beyond what I can see as loveable about a person. That's just another opinion. I can't help feeling that there's something more to it.

    I found this which I thought was interesting http://www.artofdharma.org/archives/jesus-and-bhudda-the-parallel-sayings-love-thy-enemy.html
  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran
    edited July 2012
    I just read a book called Ghandi: His Final Experiment With Truth, that primarily deals with this subject. Though not Buddhist, its quite obvious that Ghandi had some of the most impactful ways of dealing with this topic. He essentially dismantled the grip of the British Empire on India by using non-violence, compassion, and fearless courage, all the while facing death threats, imprisonment, and heavy political pressure. Its a short book and I highly recomend it. Ghandi KNEW that he would be murdered and still never ceased to love his enemies.
  • ZenshinZenshin Veteran East Midlands UK Veteran
    You might find this guide to Theravada Metta meditation of help @RebeccaS.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/buddharakkhita/wheel365.html
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited July 2012
    HOW DO YOU LOVE YOUR ENEMIES?
    Are there any suttas that pertain to this? Or does anyone have any personal experience with it?
    I like this question

    From the zens hopefully not too myopic view & countless scriptures aside,

    not differentiating between friend or foe in dealing with people makes this question so much easier. I don't think of this as an active behavioural policy but more as the unavoidable outcome of a meditation practise unfolding in the world . Firstly it plays no favouritism between your needs over others. You still see the various agendas in play but it gives you the equanimity to chose what seems best for everyone. It removes you as the potential dance partner that most adversaries are searching for. It enables you to see that what aggravates you about someone else is usually the same thing that you suffer from and like this forum, it's the opportunity to widen ones heart.

    All I know of love (whether for friends or foes) is that it's always been there. Meditation just allows some slippage of the ego's obstructing veil to demonstrate that. The self's concern for itself only experiences love as whatever feeds it. Outside of this little veiled ego world, love, unlimited by self, reigns freely.

    That makes the development of love somewhat moot and places the priority on just allowing our lives to be our meditation practise.

    I assume that all meditation practises have their variations on this but..
    when you are formally sitting and a powerful phenomena arises, how do you face it and what makes this situation really any different from dealing with an "enemy"?
    What allows us to think that the difficulties that can arise in formal meditation should be faced any differently in the world?
  • ZenshinZenshin Veteran East Midlands UK Veteran
    @how You know I've tried a little Shikantaza and once after sitting I realised that Zens attiude of non discrimination is pretty much the same attitude of acceptance that Theravadins try to build with Metta.

    @Vajraheart once said to me that the turnings of the wheel of Dharma are as inherently empty as everything else I think I begin to see what he means. Of course I could have it ass backwards!
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    @vinlyn - who says we have to pray to anything? We can pray to ourselves. I find prayer helps adjust my psychological attitude; it gets me in a frame of mind that's useful to me.
  • SileSile Veteran
    There is a practice I find helpful--you visualize the people you already love, or feel close to and care about, and then feel yourself loving them; then you picture people you feel neutral about, and (try to) feel yourself extending the same love to them. Finally, you picture people you dislike or are angry at or consider enemies--feel yourself extending them the same love.

    If you have a hard time feeling compassion for them, think of the fact that they used to once be small, helpless babies who had never hurt anyone yet, that they might have experienced some pain or suffering in their lives that made them into unpleasant people, and that they might be experiencing pain right now when they're being unpleasant to you. Most people who treat others badly are not happy themselves, and are suffering in some way.

    But by practicing a lot on the neutral people, and then working out towards "lesser enemies," you can gradually build up love or at least compassion for people you see as greater enemies. The mind is just like the body - it needs exercise, warming up, conditioning, etc.

    Feeling compassion for your enemies doesn't mean you have to hang out with them, though ideally one could extend compassion so deeply and genuinely that you literally wouldn't feel any difference being in your "enemy's" presence than in the presence of your loved ones.
    What you have described is a very nice exercise, and I commend you for the idea.

    I do however want to express that I think compassion is more than just feelings. To me, real compassion is when you really take an action on behalf of another person in their time of need.

    Right now, here in Colorado, we are reeling from the massacre up in Aurora at the movie theater. I hear people say that they have compassion for the shooter. I don't...because I would not do something to actually help the murderer of 12 people, including several children...the person who severely injured many other people...the person who took away from loved ones wives, husbands, lovers, sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, mothers, fathers, dear friends...the person who was so cruel that he also booby-trapped his apartment so that more first responders would die. I do have compassion for the victims. I would actually do something to help them if I knew something practical to do.

    Maybe compassion is a little easier for Christians since they can do something -- pray to God. But, to me, for a Buddhist, real compassion is measured when you actively do something for someone who is suffering. Anything short of that may just be making yourself feel good. Talk...and thoughts...are cheap.

    That's just my take on the concept of compassion.

    With billions of people and animals in the world, we can't possibly take action to help every single one of them; are we devoid of compassion for, say, a group of wild animals who are trapped by floodwaters yet whom we personally cannot help in any way? Or do we have compassion for them, but we simply can't reach them in time?

    I know what you're saying -- that action is important, and I agree. However, I don't believe compassion is nonexistent simply because we are not physically capable (or choose not to be) helping a specific being. One can definitely take compassionate action, but one can also have compassionate attitudes and sow compassionate seeds. Every act of compassion, in fact, can be traced to multiple seeds of compassion that were sown before that action flowered--whether it was your upbringing, your personal experience which causes you empathy, witnessing another person's compassionated act under similar circumstances...everything is connected. Your desire to actively help the Colorado victims in some way is the flowering of various seeds of compassion that were planted in you. Action is extremely important, but so is attitude and ethic.

    I agree wholeheartedly that it is extremely important to take real, direct action whenever possible!
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited July 2012
    Shantideva quote:

    "If I become angry with the wielder
    Although I am actually harmed by the stick,
    Then since the perpetrator, too, is secondary, being in turn
    incited by his hatred.
    I should be angry with his hatred instead"

    Shatideva, A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Live, V1:41 page 67!

  • You could start with sending them flowers.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    The first thing that comes to mind is that I don't recognize beings as enemies.

    To me, we are more than kin and so I see a bit of myself in everybody and recognize they too have buddha nature. I can no more hate a killer than I could hate somebody for doing something while they were having a nightmare. That doesn't mean I think we should let them continue killing but that we should do what we can to help wake them up.

    Even when defending against an attacker, I do not see them as an enemy and can have my compassion for them unmoved. Compassion is not some ideal we need to work on when non-seperation is understood, it is just common sense. If my finger bleeds, I tend to it because it is a part of me in need of healing, not because I feel sorry for it.

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    From Buddhist Psychology - Dealing with Negative Emotions, by Geshi Tashi Tsering:

    "OFFERING THE VICTORY TO OTHERS

    We can take this even further. Rather than just observe that others have an equal right to happiness, we can take the next step and actually put our own happiness aside for their sakes. Actually, this method is the only way we will ever achieve true happiness.

    Imagine that someone has done me great harm for no apparent reason. How should I handle this situation? Normally, I might take revenge...".

    My compassion doesn't motivate me to type it all out; if you want to know the rest, buy the book; Amazon flog it! :D
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @vinlyn - who says we have to pray to anything? We can pray to ourselves. I find prayer helps adjust my psychological attitude; it gets me in a frame of mind that's useful to me.
    BUt, in my view -- and this was one of my points -- isn't about you or me, it's about actually helping another person.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    There is a practice I find helpful--you visualize the people you already love, or feel close to and care about, and then feel yourself loving them; then you picture people you feel neutral about, and (try to) feel yourself extending the same love to them. Finally, you picture people you dislike or are angry at or consider enemies--feel yourself extending them the same love.

    If you have a hard time feeling compassion for them, think of the fact that they used to once be small, helpless babies who had never hurt anyone yet, that they might have experienced some pain or suffering in their lives that made them into unpleasant people, and that they might be experiencing pain right now when they're being unpleasant to you. Most people who treat others badly are not happy themselves, and are suffering in some way.

    But by practicing a lot on the neutral people, and then working out towards "lesser enemies," you can gradually build up love or at least compassion for people you see as greater enemies. The mind is just like the body - it needs exercise, warming up, conditioning, etc.

    Feeling compassion for your enemies doesn't mean you have to hang out with them, though ideally one could extend compassion so deeply and genuinely that you literally wouldn't feel any difference being in your "enemy's" presence than in the presence of your loved ones.
    What you have described is a very nice exercise, and I commend you for the idea.

    I do however want to express that I think compassion is more than just feelings. To me, real compassion is when you really take an action on behalf of another person in their time of need.

    Right now, here in Colorado, we are reeling from the massacre up in Aurora at the movie theater. I hear people say that they have compassion for the shooter. I don't...because I would not do something to actually help the murderer of 12 people, including several children...the person who severely injured many other people...the person who took away from loved ones wives, husbands, lovers, sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, mothers, fathers, dear friends...the person who was so cruel that he also booby-trapped his apartment so that more first responders would die. I do have compassion for the victims. I would actually do something to help them if I knew something practical to do.

    Maybe compassion is a little easier for Christians since they can do something -- pray to God. But, to me, for a Buddhist, real compassion is measured when you actively do something for someone who is suffering. Anything short of that may just be making yourself feel good. Talk...and thoughts...are cheap.

    That's just my take on the concept of compassion.

    With billions of people and animals in the world, we can't possibly take action to help every single one of them; are we devoid of compassion for, say, a group of wild animals who are trapped by floodwaters yet whom we personally cannot help in any way? Or do we have compassion for them, but we simply can't reach them in time?

    I know what you're saying -- that action is important, and I agree. However, I don't believe compassion is nonexistent simply because we are not physically capable (or choose not to be) helping a specific being. One can definitely take compassionate action, but one can also have compassionate attitudes and sow compassionate seeds. Every act of compassion, in fact, can be traced to multiple seeds of compassion that were sown before that action flowered--whether it was your upbringing, your personal experience which causes you empathy, witnessing another person's compassionated act under similar circumstances...everything is connected. Your desire to actively help the Colorado victims in some way is the flowering of various seeds of compassion that were planted in you. Action is extremely important, but so is attitude and ethic.

    I agree wholeheartedly that it is extremely important to take real, direct action whenever possible!
    As I said, my definition of true compassion is not everyone's definition.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Everyone, even the Aurora shooter, is at their true nature, love. I can understand how for someone to do such a horrible act, has to be suffering greatly. And, he will suffer quite greatly later in his current life, and in future lives for what he has done. As a person whose nature is love the same as mine, I can understand having compassion for his suffering as well as the victims. (just because I can grasp that doesn't mean I can practice it at this point). Forgiving means letting go of your anger, which only hurts you in the end if you don't let go of it. It doesn't mean forgetting, and it doesn't mean just poo-pooing the act that was committed.

    @vinlyn, in the case of the Aurora shooter, can you give an example or 2 of what you think would be "true compassion?" I'm curious what you have in mind, as someone else said can you not have compassion for someone unless you can actually do something for them? I can have compassion for the victims, even though I am 1200 miles away and can't physically do anything for them. Likewise I can have compassion for the shooter who I also can do nothing for in any physical sense.

    To me, part of having compassion is putting myself in their shoes, victim and shooter, and in doing so I can understand that both are suffering greatly.
  • Interestin thread!

    Her's a little somethin I found from the Dalai Lama -

    Compassion compels us 2 reach out to all living beings, including our so-called enemies, those who upset or hurt us. Irrespective of what they do to you, if you remember that all beings like you are only trying to be happy, you will find it much easier 2 develop compassion towards them.

    Cheers
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ...

    @vinlyn, in the case of the Aurora shooter, can you give an example or 2 of what you think would be "true compassion?" I'm curious what you have in mind, as someone else said can you not have compassion for someone unless you can actually do something for them? I can have compassion for the victims, even though I am 1200 miles away and can't physically do anything for them. Likewise I can have compassion for the shooter who I also can do nothing for in any physical sense.

    ...
    I have no compassion for mass murderers who randomly murder people, including small children.

    Let me give you 3 levels of compassion, however, that would fit here in this real case:

    1. False compassion - "I feel compassion for XXX, blah, blah, blah." As I said earlier, talk is cheap.

    2. Moderate compassion -- make a contribution to the defense fund of the mass murderer. Help him "get off". You don't have to be here to do that. You can do it by check. It requires you to make a sacrifice. But to be real, you've got to make the donation significant enough that you really feel it as a sacrifice. And if there doesn't happen to be one for this mass murderer, perhaps you can contribute to the defense fund for other people charged with capital murders...such as David Zimmerman.

    3. Heartfelt compassion -- Start visiting murderers or other serious felons in prison. Become their pen pals. Offer to provide them with funds upon their release. Better yet, use your home to act as a sort of halfway house for a few serious felons when they get out of prison until they get back on their feet.

    Now you may think that I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. Go visit a convicted felon in prison. See how that feels. I have. And I will tell you that you feel really dirty walking down that long hallway after being thoroughly searched, and entering the little cubicle where you sit an talk through a phone to a felon for exactly 40 minutes...no more, no less (because you can only enter and leave as a group of visitors). Look around the parking lot. See the razor wire keeping those nice, misunderstood people inside where they can not harm the public anymore. And while the person you're visiting may not be the lowest of the low, look around at the others...and tell me that you're so compassionate that you'd trust them if you were walking down a dark street.

    When it comes to compassion, you can talk the talk, or you can walk the walk.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ^^ I want to add something.

    You know, quite a while back when I was still visiting Thailand most summers, I had a flat down off Sukhumvit Soi 65 in Bangkok. Virtually every day when I would walk to the bus station I would have to cross a walkover, and there was a boy -- about the same age as the kids in the middle school back in Virginia where I was an administrator. In America he would have been in school, because from what I could tell the only thing wrong with him was that he had a face very badly disfigured face -- a port-wine stain -- a birthmark in which swollen blood vessels create a reddish-purplish discoloration of the skin, sometimes quite swollen looking. His was the worst I had ever seen because it covered fully one side of his face from his nose to his ear, from his hairline to his chin. In Thailand, most Thai Buddhists consider a handicap like that a result of bad karma. Every day when I would walk over the highway, he'd be there begging, and I'd give him the coins in my pocket. Virtually every day for nearly 7 weeks. On my last day I opened my wallet and gave him Thai currency worth about $18. He was stunned. And I walked away feeling pretty good about myself. Later, however, I got to thinking that what I did was not really very compassionate at all. That was about the same amount of money I spent every week on a music CD back home. I was embarrassed that I had felt so good about myself over what was, in reality, no sacrifice at all.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    @vinlyn - who says we have to pray to anything? We can pray to ourselves. I find prayer helps adjust my psychological attitude; it gets me in a frame of mind that's useful to me.
    BUt, in my view -- and this was one of my points -- isn't about you or me, it's about actually helping another person.

    I'm not sure I fully understand, but in the example I gave, I helped my Mother by using prayer because prayer helped me adjust my psychological attitude and therefore stop 'biting' my Mother when she gave me a hard time.

    Prayer helped me develop the intention not to get angry with my Mother, which ultimately helped me amend a negative situation and we were both helped.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    ...

    @vinlyn, in the case of the Aurora shooter, can you give an example or 2 of what you think would be "true compassion?" I'm curious what you have in mind, as someone else said can you not have compassion for someone unless you can actually do something for them? I can have compassion for the victims, even though I am 1200 miles away and can't physically do anything for them. Likewise I can have compassion for the shooter who I also can do nothing for in any physical sense.

    ...
    I have no compassion for mass murderers who randomly murder people, including small children.

    Let me give you 3 levels of compassion, however, that would fit here in this real case:

    1. False compassion - "I feel compassion for XXX, blah, blah, blah." As I said earlier, talk is cheap.

    2. Moderate compassion -- make a contribution to the defense fund of the mass murderer. Help him "get off". You don't have to be here to do that. You can do it by check. It requires you to make a sacrifice. But to be real, you've got to make the donation significant enough that you really feel it as a sacrifice. And if there doesn't happen to be one for this mass murderer, perhaps you can contribute to the defense fund for other people charged with capital murders...such as David Zimmerman.

    3. Heartfelt compassion -- Start visiting murderers or other serious felons in prison. Become their pen pals. Offer to provide them with funds upon their release. Better yet, use your home to act as a sort of halfway house for a few serious felons when they get out of prison until they get back on their feet.

    Now you may think that I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. Go visit a convicted felon in prison. See how that feels. I have. And I will tell you that you feel really dirty walking down that long hallway after being thoroughly searched, and entering the little cubicle where you sit an talk through a phone to a felon for exactly 40 minutes...no more, no less (because you can only enter and leave as a group of visitors). Look around the parking lot. See the razor wire keeping those nice, misunderstood people inside where they can not harm the public anymore. And while the person you're visiting may not be the lowest of the low, look around at the others...and tell me that you're so compassionate that you'd trust them if you were walking down a dark street.

    When it comes to compassion, you can talk the talk, or you can walk the walk.

    I believe the original meaning of 'metta' was a warm friendly attitude. That's a bit more realistic than trying to develop love and compassion for everyone.

    And what about compassion because you think you have to; like out of a sense of duty? Is that compassion? I'm off to visit an alkie this morning, out of a sense of duty; I'm out of bed especially early on a Sunday morning to do so. I don't want to, though; I've got the brakes on. I want to lie on in bed.

    I feel like I'm destroying any positive karma with regret for having to get up so early, on a Sunday!

    And what about the compassion we can do to 'show off' (aren't I such a good person for getting up early on a Sunday morning to go help someone?).

    Gotta run...
  • Here is I think Ajahn Sumedho's take on metta.
    In English the word 'love' often refers to 'something that I like'. For example, 'l love sticky rice', 'I love sweet mango'. We really mean we like it. Liking is being attached to something such as food which we really like or enjoy eating. We don't love it. Metta means you love your enemy; it doesn't mean you like your enemy. If somebody wants to kill you and you say, 'I like them', that is silly! But we can love them, meaning that we can refrain from unpleasant thoughts and vindictiveness, from any desire to hurt them or annihilate them. Even though you might not like them -- they are miserable, wretched people -- you can still be kind, generous and charitable towards them. If some drunk came into this room who was foul and disgusting, ugly and diseased, and there was nothing one could be attracted to in him -- to say, 'I like this man' would be ridiculous. But one could love him, not dwell in aversion, not be caught up in reactions to his unpleasantness. That's what we mean by metta.

    Sometimes there are things one doesn't like about oneself, but metta means not being caught up in the thoughts we have, the attitudes, the problems, the thoughts and feelings of the mind. So it becomes an immediate practice of being very mindful. To be mindful means to have metta towards the fear in your mind, or the anger, or the jealousy. Metta means not creating problems around existing conditions, allowing them to fade away, to cease. For example, when fear comes up in your mind, you can have metta for the fear -- meaning that you don't build up aversion to it, you can just accept its presence and allow it to cease. You can also minimise the fear by recognising that it is the same kind of fear that everyone has, that animals have. It's not my fear, it's not a person's, it's an impersonal fear. We begin to have compassion for other beings when we understand the suffering involved in reacting to fear in our own lives -- the pain, the physical pain of being kicked, when somebody kicks you. That kind of pain is exactly the same kind of pain that a dog feels when he's being kicked, so you can have metta for the pain, meaning a kindness and a patience of not dwelling in aversion.

    You are not blinding yourself to the faults and flaws in everything. You are just peacefully co-existing with them. You are not demanding that it be otherwise. So metta sometimes needs to overlook what's wrong with yourself and everyone else -- it doesn't mean that you don't notice those things, it means that you don't develop problems around them. You stop that kind of indulgence by being kind and patient -- peacefully co-existing.
  • The short version is "no". If people go out of their way to hurt me or mine, I do not like them. Usually though, people hurting you are just not very nice people, that does not make them an "enemy". If I meet people who are not nice, I avoid them as much as possible. If they are in a position where I cannot physically avoid them, I just don't talk to them.
    I don't want to waste my energy on them, so I lock them out. I don't wish bad for them, neither good. I simply don't bother... Why should I? I don't see the point in obsessing about people you don't like, trying to force yourself to like them. Give them way too much space in your life, better reserved for the ones who really mean something to you..
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Are there any suttas that pertain to this?
    This is quite inspiring: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.amar.html

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    The short version is "no". If people go out of their way to hurt me or mine, I do not like them. Usually though, people hurting you are just not very nice people, that does not make them an "enemy". If I meet people who are not nice, I avoid them as much as possible. If they are in a position where I cannot physically avoid them, I just don't talk to them.
    I don't want to waste my energy on them, so I lock them out. I don't wish bad for them, neither good. I simply don't bother... Why should I? I don't see the point in obsessing about people you don't like, trying to force yourself to like them. Give them way too much space in your life, better reserved for the ones who really mean something to you..
    I agree with you; I'm pretty much the same, but in Buddhism I'm taught the idea is to develop equanimity, so that we don't view people as friend, enemy, or neutral. Why? Because we base our perceptions of what others are like on how they make us feel; it's based on self centredness.

    You see, the selfish mind is a tight unhappy one, and a selfless mind is a lighter happier one, and the more we work towards being selfless, the less we will judge others on how they make us feel; therefore we will suffer with less attraction (attachment) and aversion.

    That sounds logical enough to me, it's simple enough to understand I think, but it's not easy.

    Hence why I agree with you Ficus; in some circumstances, I'm better off avoiding some folk. :D
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Give them way too much space in your life, better reserved for the ones who really mean something to you..
    Associating with the wise is good too. ;)
  • Give them way too much space in your life, better reserved for the ones who really mean something to you..
    Associating with the wise is good too. ;)
    Everyone has their story to tell and their unique take on phenomena ... The wise accept this

    ;)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Give them way too much space in your life, better reserved for the ones who really mean something to you..
    Associating with the wise is good too. ;)
    Everyone has their story to tell and their unique take on phenomena ... The wise accept this

    ;)
    I was thinking of these verses from the Dhammapada:

    206. Good is it to see the Noble Ones; to live with them is ever blissful. One will always be happy by not encountering fools.

    207. Indeed, he who moves in the company of fools grieves for longing. Association with fools is ever painful, like partnership with an enemy. But association with the wise is happy, like meeting one's own kinsmen.

    208. Therefore, follow the Noble One, who is steadfast, wise, learned, dutiful and devout. One should follow only such a man, who is truly good and discerning, even as the moon follows the path of the stars.

  • I come to think of the Sigalovada Sutta

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html

    In this sutta, Buddha teaches laity on good acquaintances - and a lot of other stuff, which I find more relevant to my life as an average person, compared to lots of other suttas :)
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited July 2012
    There's some really great stuff here, thanks everyone!

    As for my use of the word enemy... It's just semantics. I wrote that because that was Christ's teaching and that wording has been in my head my whole life. I don't actually have any "enemies" like I'm Spiderman or something :lol:

    I just meant people I don't like.

    I agree with avoiding some people. Absolutely. I don't think compassion is hanging around with people who are mean or dangerous or who drive me up the wall. I don't think compassion is putting yourself at risk to get hurt by someone like that, because that wouldn't be very compassionate towards myself. I wouldn't do it for the same reason I wouldn't jump into a pool of sharks.

    I'd still like to learn to love them though. I don't think you can pick and choose who you feel compassion for (though, this may be a start, what @sabre said about small twigs) and I don't think you can decide what is loveable about a person because that's just your perception. I think compassion goes beyond that, somehow.

    I also don't think compassion is deluding yourself that all people are nice or good, either. Some people are mean and do awful things. I'm not saying that means there isn't something loveable about them, just that I don't know what it is. And pity isn't compassion, pity is just arrogance.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited July 2012
    If there is one key teaching in Buddhism, I'd say it's the teaching of non-self. Among other things this means, when there is anger in us, it's not a choice we make. It's something that just arises. Of course, we can take evasive steps by practicing loving kindness, but as long as the seeds for anger are still in us, sometimes it will pop up. The same is true for greed, jealousy, violence and so forth. The Buddha called it kilesas, often translated as defilements, but that's a strong word, so I prefer afflictions.

    So we really haven't got a lot to say in that matter. But the same is also true for others. Those you don't like also have these clouds in their mind. Some are totally overwelmed by it even. Those have darker clouds, but the afflictions are still just clouds. And just like clouds in reality, beyond them the sky is clear.

    So if you can seperate the clouds from the sky, the afflictions from the person, it makes it a lot easier to have compassion for every being. Even those who you never expected to be able to have compassion towards. It's just their conditioning really, not something they can really do something about.
  • My Christian favorite is: "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39). For a Buddhist monk this can be dangerous if we consider that an evil person might be a sex worker or a drug dealer. Sure it is easy to turn the other cheek or run away from an evil person. But sometimes an evil person can be very attractive and desirable—you might even want to embrace them. I think it is obvious, too, that loving your enemy has its limits. Often it is better to ignore your enemy.
  • @sabre Thank you, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm going to go sit on it for a while. :)
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    @sabre Thank you, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm going to go sit on it for a while. :)
    You're welcome!

    Of course it is also very helpful to see how afflictions arise in your own mind without having chosen them. This is why from investigating ourselves, we can understand eachother. And this is why wisdom and compassion go hand in hand.

    Metta!
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @vinlyn I don't understand how you can compare compassion to contributing to a guilty person being released into the public without rehabilitation(if it is possible, often it is not). Compassion has nothing to do with letting wrong doers get away with their actions without being held responsible to society. Not only do you do society no favors you do the offender no favors, either.

    And I promise you I have spent time in prisons. Not just any prison, I used to work for the MN Sex Offender Treatment program. I've spent plenty of time amongst violent criminals. We no longer live anywhere near a prison, since we live in the sticks and I no longer work with them. Would I bring someone potentially dangerous to live with my children? Of course not. But on the reality side you can't just invite criminals to live in your home, there are licensing procedures and such that have to be followed. At the point in my life I can return to work, would I consider working in such an environment? Yes, I would. It's why I chose the degree I did in college. But, it's unlikely because of where we live. Most likely I'll end up working for the department of natural resources or something along those lines.

    Even though it appears incomprehensible to most of us, every person. Every single person, rides a fine line between completely normal and completely not normal. Every person on the planet is capable of performing horrible, horrible acts. Most of us are lucky enough that circumstances do not present themselves that we carry out those acts. For others, that's not the case.
  • Most of us are lucky enough that circumstances do not present themselves that we carry out those acts. For others, that's not the case.
    That just sounds like you would do something horrible given the opportunity :lol:
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited July 2012
    @sabre Thank you, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm going to go sit on it for a while. :)
    You're welcome!

    Of course it is also very helpful to see how afflictions arise in your own mind without having chosen them. This is why from investigating ourselves, we can understand eachother. And this is why wisdom and compassion go hand in hand.

    Metta!
    Yeah I'm really giving a lot of thought to conditioning, not as an excuse, maybe not even a reason but definitely as a factor. I do find it hard to recognize the impact of conditioning without getting into a "blame the parents" kind of mentality though.

    But that's kind of bridged when I think about things like karma, genetics, other environmental factors, that the mind is of itself unable to tell truth from falsehood... Sorry if this is a bit rambling, I'm just thinking out loud here.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    I believe the original meaning of 'metta' was a warm friendly attitude. That's a bit more realistic than trying to develop love and compassion for everyone.

    And what about compassion because you think you have to; like out of a sense of duty? Is that compassion? I'm off to visit an alkie this morning, out of a sense of duty; I'm out of bed especially early on a Sunday morning to do so. I don't want to, though; I've got the brakes on. I want to lie on in bed.

    I feel like I'm destroying any positive karma with regret for having to get up so early, on a Sunday!

    And what about the compassion we can do to 'show off' (aren't I such a good person for getting up early on a Sunday morning to go help someone?).

    I think the way you describe metta is realistic. I like it.

    In regard to compassion "because you think you have to"...to me that's not compassion, although it is also not something negative. Sounds like the difference between compassion and responsibility. Fulfilling responsibilities is a good thing, unless we are misguided in what our responsibilities are.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    The short version is "no". If people go out of their way to hurt me or mine, I do not like them. Usually though, people hurting you are just not very nice people, that does not make them an "enemy". If I meet people who are not nice, I avoid them as much as possible. If they are in a position where I cannot physically avoid them, I just don't talk to them.
    I don't want to waste my energy on them, so I lock them out. I don't wish bad for them, neither good. I simply don't bother... Why should I? I don't see the point in obsessing about people you don't like, trying to force yourself to like them. Give them way too much space in your life, better reserved for the ones who really mean something to you..
    I think that's a fair and realistic position.



  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @RebeccaS, lol, no, I just meant circumstances such as past karma, genetics, upbringing that contributes to mental defects, etc. It doesn't sound, from what I've read so far, that James Holmes is mentally competent (not talking legally here, just in general). If that is the case, then it is possibly not his fault that he is that way. I don't mean he shouldn't be held responsible for his acts, of course, just that he likely was not coming at things from a normal place like the rest of us do. That is the case for most mass murderers and serial murderers, along with predatory sex offenders and a few others. We can't understand them because we aren't in the place they are, thank goodness. But they are also not in the place we are, and they don't see and understand life the same way we do.
  • @karasti There is no way he's mentally competent. I mean, if he was he wouldn't have done it. Something is definitely broken there.

    I definitely see what you're saying here.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    I agree with you; I'm pretty much the same, but in Buddhism I'm taught the idea is to develop equanimity, so that we don't view people as friend, enemy, or neutral. Why? Because we base our perceptions of what others are like on how they make us feel; it's based on self centredness.

    You see, the selfish mind is a tight unhappy one, and a selfless mind is a lighter happier one, and the more we work towards being selfless, the less we will judge others on how they make us feel; therefore we will suffer with less attraction (attachment) and aversion.

    That sounds logical enough to me, it's simple enough to understand I think, but it's not easy.

    Hence why I agree with you Ficus; in some circumstances, I'm better off avoiding some folk. :D
    Hmmm. I don't see that as the definition of equanimity (which I thought was: "mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, esp. in a difficult situation"). However, I think you have a good point for most of life. The vast majority of people are not our "enemy", although it is very easy for a human to make people their enemy.

    But I'm not sure we can say that we have no enemies. What about the kid in elementary school that used to beat me up on the playground? The bully in 7th grade that picked on me every single day for no reason? The parent when I was a principal who threatened to kill me? The teacher who threatened to ruin my career? Those people I couldn't avoid...although avoiding some people is very good advice.

  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited July 2012
    @Vinlyn I suppose I could make enemies like that later in life, but I'm too young to ever have been in a position to make enemies in that way. I don't think there is anyone out there in the world who would specifically want to hurt me. Some kid stuff, maybe, things from the playground... But would anyone really nurse a hurt for that long? Maybe... I wasn't a nice kid... Maybe I do have some enemies in the sense that there could be someone out there who holds a grudge against me, but I doubt I'll ever have to deal with any of them ever again in my life, and I don't really see that as my problem. I'm sorry that I've hurt people in my life, absolutely, but if they decide to hold a grudge about it that's none of my business, the same as if I hold a grudge against someone else it's none of theirs. It's my problem.

    Unless one of them like, flipped a switch and now they're hunting me down and searching the globe for me... But I don't think anyone is.

    I'm a little freaked out from thinking about this :lol:
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