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Nirvana transcends all modes of relativity

edited July 2012 in Philosophy
"Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's Relativity." - Albert Einstein

Zen requires the attainment of ultimate reality, which is the emptiness or the absolute. The latter transcends all modes of relativity.

"Can you look at a situation without naming it? Naming it, making it a word causes fear."

Apply your self to the work to be done as if nothing particular were taking place at the moment.

Comments

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    "Can you look at a situation without naming it? Naming it, making it a word causes fear."
    Intriguing - could you elaborate? Why does naming something cause fear?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited July 2012

    Apply your self to the work to be done as if nothing particular were taking place at the moment.
    Anyone completely engrossed in a specific craft will know how this feels....but this is not Nibbana. This is mindfulness.

  • "Can you look at a situation without naming it? Naming it, making it a word causes fear."
    Intriguing - could you elaborate? Why does naming something cause fear?


    To elaborate on my point, a sit with the pretty girl will feel fast because of the pleasant or positive label given to the experience. A hand on the stove will go slow because it is dreaded, it is dreaded because it is identified as unpleasant. The one who makes an unpleasant identification is impatient for the future, the one who makes a pleasant identification holds on to the past. Both identifications distort how fast or slow the passing time feels.

    Watch, but don't stop and interpret, to stop and interpret is to live in a memory of something that has gone. To understand and live now, everything of yesterday must die.

    @federica

    Perhaps, that technique is not Nirvana itself, but it is another way of explaining how one can become closer to the essence of the mind; Nirvana.

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Words.

    They liberate themselves.

    Just sounds.

    Why make the duality in the first place?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    For me a burn on the stove happens fast. Hand pulls away at lightning speed.
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    "
    "Can you look at a situation without naming it? "

    instead of questioning

    this is what one has to try and see

    if one will successful one will be able to reach the turning point

  • "Can you look at a situation without naming it? Naming it, making it a word causes fear."
    Intriguing - could you elaborate? Why does naming something cause fear?


    To elaborate on my point, a sit with the pretty girl will feel fast because of the pleasant or positive label given to the experience. A hand on the stove will go slow because it is dreaded, it is dreaded because it is identified as unpleasant. The one who makes an unpleasant identification is impatient for the future, the one who makes a pleasant identification holds on to the past. Both identifications distort how fast or slow the passing time feels.

    Watch, but don't stop and interpret, to stop and interpret is to live in a memory of something that has gone. To understand and live now, everything of yesterday must die.
    Lil animals don't label things and yet they suffer, feel fear, etc. And what exactly is wrong with feeling fear or pain?
  • @ozen

    I don't mean to say that no longer labeling things will make you free from all fear and suffering.

    I mean to say that the ideas attached to the titles we give things are often if not always illusions.

    It is not, "I don't want to do this I would rather..." - that sort of thought comes from a person who has desires and likes and dislikes, their likes and dislikes lead them to evaluate the now 'favorable or unfavorable' situation, naming it attractive, ugly.. etc, etc.. (pleasant, or unpleasant).

    The ideas attached to these identifications cut 'what is' to pieces.

    Apply your self to the work to be done as if nothing particular were taking place at the moment.

    "Empty your cup so that it may be filled; become devoid to gain totality."

    --------------------------------------

    You will never have complete freedom until you have rooted out your fears, fear only has power if you act or react. If a state moves you to a thought, action, or emotion, then it has power over you.

    @Jeffrey

    The hand on the stove was more of an analogy in this case to what some might call an unpleasant situation. Which in this case, is not a situation that can be instantly avoided by lifting up ones hand.

    @Upekka

    Yes, I am questioning the reader on their ability to do such a thing.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    For me a burn on the stove happens fast. Hand pulls away at lightning speed.
    "Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
    Same thing @Jeffrey - 'a minute seems like an hour' therefore your perception of time is running quicker (a shorter time seems longer as your brain is undertaking more processes in a shorter timeframe) - thus it happens 'fast' in your perception but for someone else not experiencing the burn, time is experienced at a 'different' rate...
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Just to complicate things, it occured to me that noting / labelling is a Buddhist practice.
  • I mean to say that the ideas attached to the titles we give things are often if not always illusions.

    It is not, "I don't want to do this I would rather..." - that sort of thought comes from a person who has desires and likes and dislikes, their likes and dislikes lead them to evaluate the now 'favorable or unfavorable' situation, naming it attractive, ugly.. etc, etc.. (pleasant, or unpleasant).

    The ideas attached to these identifications cut 'what is' to pieces.
    The ideas? what about the feelings?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran


    Zen requires the attainment of ultimate reality
    Can you say what the attainment of ultimate reality is, without opening your mouth and naming things?

  • Seeker242: I think PoisonFlowerz can—but do you have the Buddha's ears to hear the deathless sound?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Seeker242: I think PoisonFlowerz can—but do you have the Buddha's ears to hear the deathless sound?
    I don't know. I would have to hear what it sounds like first. :)

  • GuiGui Veteran
    Words.

    They liberate themselves.

    Just sounds.

    Why make the duality in the first place?
    :thumbup:
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    i prefer to let them digest what they read

    :)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    I mean to say that the ideas attached to the titles we give things are often if not always illusions.
    I think labelling converts experience from non-conceptual to conceptual. But I still don't see how that's a bad thing.
  • Avoiding the labels is the key I believe. It's not important to ask what nirvana is actually. What is more important is asking "Am I suffering in this present moment?" and "How can I end my suffering at this present moment?" I believe if we keep searching for the answers to these questions often, along with developing the seven factors, this should lead us to know what nirvana is.
  • SileSile Veteran
    If we don't label a label "a label," is it a label?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    If we don't label a label "a label," is it a label?

    No! :)
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    If we don't label a label "a label," is it a label?
    Yes! :)

  • SileSile Veteran
    LOL
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    It's not important to ask what nirvana is actually.
    Why? It seems quite important to me.
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    I love you guys. :D

    rather than run from labels I have found it easier to engage silence
  • "Nibanna is timeless (akâliko)" (A.i.158).
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    I mean to say that the ideas attached to the titles we give things are often if not always illusions.
    I think labelling converts experience from non-conceptual to conceptual. But I still don't see how that's a bad thing.
    @PedanticPorpoise
    I don't think that conceptual thinking is bad at all, in fact it's necessary to develop the logic and understanding to penetrate into deeper meanings. I think that concepts, however, are actually really slow compared to intrinsic awareness/wisdom -- if you ask me how many numbers there are from one to one million I can tell you, or I can spend a few hours (days?) counting from one to one million.

    Nonconceptual understanding is much faster, if you're looking for a practical reason. At least that's the way I look at it.
    A hand on the stove will go slow because it is dreaded, it is dreaded because it is identified as unpleasant. The one who makes an unpleasant identification is impatient for the future, the one who makes a pleasant identification holds on to the past. Both identifications distort how fast or slow the passing time feels.

    Watch, but don't stop and interpret, to stop and interpret is to live in a memory of something that has gone. To understand and live now, everything of yesterday must die.
    I have heard the Einstein quote before but had not come to the idea of pleasant/painful identification, that really cleared it up for me, thanks =)
  • Why? It seems quite important to me.
    Well I think knowing "what it is" is different than experiencing it or being there. Asking questions about it is great for our intelligence, but its still not as good as experiencing it or direct realization of it. I would think this would be the only way to completely know or understand it, but this is just my opinion.

  • GuiGui Veteran
    The Buddha's robe is a patchwork of the relative and the absolute.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    @taiyaki said:

    Words.

    They liberate themselves.

    Just sounds.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    It's true isn't it.

    If I am sitting opposite a foreigner speaking loudly on a phone on the train in a language I can't understand I am not bothered.

    If I am sitting opposite an English speaker speaking loudly on the phone on a train it does bother me.

    Why?

  • In both cases its just sound. Then another sound. Then another sound. Then linked together to create words. Then words create narratives, etc.

    But its always just one sound. Like a note on a song. One note. Then another note. And with all the notes you have a song. But in the instant it is always only one note. Just going really fast! One note, gone, one note, gone, etc.

    After the meeting or contact with senses and arising of sound consciousness.

    Feeling arises. Pleasurable, unpleasurable, neutral.

    Then clinging. I like this, I don't like this, I am neutral about this.

    Then craving. I like this because ( insert story here), etc.

    Then becoming (action in the form of body, speech, mind.)

    This is a short chain of dependent arising of suffering.

    Here this is a better reference for you if you want to learn to deconstruct your experience and practically work on a way to reduce your suffering:

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