Confused about certain suttas

aing

I struggle with the Atanatiya Sutta and Ahina Sutta as compared to the other reasonable concepts of Buddhism. Are there actually actions,meditions, beliefs that can keep one safe from danger or snake bite?

"Learn by heart, monks, the Atanata protection, constantly make use of it, bear it in mind. This Atanata protection, monks, pertains to your welfare, and by virtue of it, monks and nuns, laymen and laywomen may live at ease, guarded, protected, and unharmed."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-32-pt0.html

"Then it's certain, monks, that that monk didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will. For if he had suffused the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will, he would not have died after having been bitten by a snake.".
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-067.html

Balder

Well, there's a couple ways you could look at these things, in my opinion. From a Wilber-influenced, Integral perspective, you might say that these suttas are examples of the "Blue" mythological worldview in which Buddhism first emerged, many parts of which the Buddha accepted or did not challenge. (The Buddha may have said nagas are "empty" of inherent existence, and yet granted them the same conventional reality as human beings and animals).

From another perspective, there may actually be something to these claims. I have been in Tibetan ceremonies outdoors, and twice have noticed snakes showing up and slithering among us as the lamas chanted texts related to the nagas.

Palzang

Well, that reminds me of a story. When H.H. Penor Rinpoche came to Maryland years ago to give the Rinchen Terdzod cycle of empowerments for the first time in the West, during the empowerments (which lasted a month) a huge black snake showed up at the temple one day. Normally black snakes in Maryland reach a maximum length of a couple of feet and a thickness of maybe 5" (to be generous). This one, however, was closer to 10 ft. long and was as thick as a fire hose. Even stranger, it circumambulated (if you can say that about a legless creature) the temple three times (clockwise,of course), and then crawled away, never to be seen again. Now, if that wasn't a naga, then I don't know what it was. It certainly wasn't a regular black snake! And it was witnessed by a large number of people.

Palzang

Brigid

Could someone please tell me what a naga is, simplified a bit?

Balder

A naga is a supernatural snake being, sometimes thought to dwell under lakes. They were supposedly intelligent, and they listened to and sometimes have preserved various dharma teachings.

Esau

Hello all,
Hey Balder et el, do you take these beings as being real or as a psychological factor? Just interested....

Namaste,

Esau

Brigid

Balder wrote:

A naga is a supernatural snake being, sometimes thought to dwell under lakes. They were supposedly intelligent, and they listened to and sometimes have preserved various dharma teachings.

Thanks, Balder. That was perfect.

Balder

Esau,

Personally, I have a hard time believing they refer to real creatures, and tend more towards the first (Integral) perspective I mentioned in my earlier post.

But like I said, I have seen snakes emerge a number of times during naga-related ceremonies...which may be coincidental, but which is still unusual.

Palzang

I guess it depends on your definition of "real". There are different levels of reality. I think nagas are as real as anything, but they may represent a reality of a different sort than we're used to dealing with.

Let me give you an example. In Mongolia when the Communists went on their orgy of destruction and pillaging of Buddhist temples and monasteries back in the '30s, a lot of rivers and streams that used to run by these temples and monasteries dried up. The Mongolians will tell you they dried up because the nagas were no longer being propitiated by offerings and practices. They feel that the way to restore these streams is through naga practice rather than using what we would consider ecological means. So it all depends on how you view "reality".

Palzang

aing

The thing that bothered me was that it appeared to be a criticism that the monk didnt do the right thing, "didn't suffuse the four royal snake lineages with a mind of good will" and that was the reason he died of a snake bite.

In the other it appeared that where was a charm, the Atanata protection, that would keep them from harm

Are these type of teachings allegory?

aing

I have not taken Refuge. Still studying.

I accept the importance of following Buddha's example

My main difficulty in Dharma. In Taking refuge do I have to accept the literal words of the thousands of Sutta's.

I accept the Four noble truths and the Eight fold path as the way of a release from suffering. I have difficulty with the first of the five precepts of the layman and the fifth Noble path, the not killing. Does this mean I have to be a vegetarian? Or can I take Refuge knowing I have much to learn, understand and implement in my life as a lay Buddhist?

This was the point of this thread for me.

Padawan

Esau wrote:

Hello all,
Hey Balder et el, do you take these beings as being real or as a psychological factor? Just interested....

Namaste,

Esau

Here's my take on Nagas. If every being has inherent Buddha Nature, then maybe Nagas are snakes that have realised theirs? There are many, many animals yet to be categorised on this planet- check any cryptozoologist site.

Brigid

aing wrote:

I have not taken Refuge. Still studying.

I accept the importance of following Buddha's example

My main difficulty in Dharma. In Taking refuge do I have to accept the literal words of the thousands of Sutta's.

I accept the Four noble truths and the Eight fold path as the way of a release from suffering. I have difficulty with the first of the five precepts of the layman and the fifth Noble path, the not killing. Does this mean I have to be a vegetarian? Or can I take Refuge knowing I have much to learn, understand and implement in my life as a lay Buddhist?

This was the point of this thread for me.

Hi, Aing.

No, you certainly do not have to accept anything literally, or figuratively for that matter. In Buddhism you must find out the truth of these things for yourself, through experiential understanding gained through practice. The Buddha specifically told his followers not to believe anything unless it could proven through their own experience and understanding.

Buddhism is not based on faith, beliefs, ideas, hopes, dreams, arbitrary laws or even common sense (because common sense can't be fully trusted either). It's about reality and coming to a real understanding of that reality through practice and study. You don't have to become a vegetarian if you can't. Tibetans eat meat. But the Dalai Lama has said that at gatherings with many Buddhists it would be better if they stuck to a vegetarian menu. These things are flexible, because flexibility is of utmost importance. We can't let go of our false beliefs, attachments and ideas unless we become flexible enough to release them.

Buddhism is a process. It goes step by step. When you're comfortable with the truth of certain things then you can accept them. Keep your skeptical mind until you can prove these things to your own full satisfaction. You don't have to swallow the whole thing in order to take refuge. If you know that following the process of the Noble Eightfold Path will be of benefit, take refuge. It's really as simple as that.

Take it one step at a time and question everything until you're satisfied with the answers. All the trappings are tools to help you along in the process. Only you know what will be of benefit to you, what will work best with your personality and your inclinations. If you come across something that you can't accept, you can question it until you can accept it or you can put is aside to look at later on. Your understanding will change as the process goes on and very often the things you put aside will make sense further down the road. Be patient with yourself. As somebody wise here once said, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Brigid

aing

Thank you Brigid

When I first came to this site I was more sure of what I knew about anything than I am now.