the sense-perception of thought (thought as sense-perception)

sova

Hello everyone

firstly, thank you all for participating in this most wonderful journey. many good vibes to you and yous.

i don't post very often, but i do like to read what goes on on NB. There are many skilled practitioners here and i am thankful for their presence and guiding awareness.

i thought of a fun discussion topic, and i think it would be of benefit to many of the posters here to talk a bit about it. i am trying to polish my understanding of the topic so please don't accept anything said in this post blindly. i encourage you to investigate for yourself.



The six sense perceptions in Buddhism (based on my novice-like understanding) are Seeing, Hearing, Tasting, Smelling, Touching, and Thought.
You can break down the first five into internal and external spheres, so you have something like

internal sense spheres of: seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, thinking
external spheres of: form, sounds, tastes/flavors, smells/aromas, tactile things -- tact-ition?, and thoughts (respectively -- that is, in that respective order)

So that is more-or-less the topic of discussion, the six sense spheres. i always found "thought" as a sense-perception to be a fascinating way to look at .. being-a-person .. and i was wondering on your thoughts on the topic.

Thoughts can be changed, and thus your whole world can be changed. Do you guys think that the other sense perceptions are also subject to the same potential -- that is, for perception itself to change? Or is perception always pure, and our interpretation of perception that is cloudy?


love you guys, best wishes, and thanks for every-no-thing

Sabre

Hi!

The sixth sense in Buddhism is not just the sense of thought, it's the sense of all mind phenomena. So this is indeed thought, but also everything that's below thought, all this stuff you find in meditation to be bubbling up before a thought occurs.

And it's also the perception of internal peace and happiness that's included in this. Or of course sadness and other emotions as well. Emotions are in the body for a big part, but also in the mind. Thus it is also mind-sense.

Perceptions of the 5 'world' senses is really tricky. Actually the mind rules over them. When people are meditating, they can have a feeling of floating, or sinking into the ground. Or their body becoming like thin air or maybe a stone. That's the mind doing funny stuff.

Sight is also strange. You can see things reshaping, the world deforming. This is not only testable, but also quite well known in science. You also have all those sight-trick things you probably know. The brain is well equipped to trick our sight.

After a deep meditation, all the senses are stronger. Colors are more bright, sounds are clearer, etc. So what we percieve usually is a lie. Perception is a filter of reality.

Metta!

RebeccaS

Perception literally means interpretation of stimuli based on memory. So whatever is going on "out there" might actually be completely different to how you interpret it. Perception is always flawed because it is looking out of a lense colored by memory.

sova

@Sabre

The sixth sense in Buddhism is not just the sense of thought, it's the sense of all mind phenomena. So this is indeed thought, but also everything that's below thought, all this stuff you find in meditation to be bubbling up before a thought occurs.

Interesting, I had not considered it this way, but that makes sense, as I do enjoy the tenet "mind over matter" -- or in this case, mind over ... reality?

So even more subtler than coarse 'thoughts' that come as words, there is mind-sense, and mind-sense is also the primary faculty in all the other senses as well?

@RebeccaS

Perception literally means interpretation of stimuli based on memory.

That is awesome, I did not know that. That's actually very helpful for me in contemplating that meditation is a 'cleansing of the lens' by going into perception without preconceived notions. 'clear perception' or 'clear light state' begin to take on a much vaster meaning now

Sabre

Mind over matter, yeah, in a way sure. If there was no mind sense, there wouldn't be the other senses. It's the mind sese that links them together. But of course you can't really control what the body feels with the mind, so in that sense it's not mind over matter.

What's more interesting and less theory, is deep meditatoin where the 5 bodily senses drop away and only mind-sense is left. But you can't have it the other way around. After eye perception, there will always be the mind to tell what it percieves, give it a value or whatever.

So if you want to get a grip on this stuff, be very still and peaceful in meditation.

Metta!

DairyLama

Or is perception always pure, and our interpretation of perception that is cloudy?

I think this is quite a tricky question because perception is so closely entwined with feeling and consciousness. See the section on "perception" in this sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

seeker242

Thoughts can be changed, and thus your whole world can be changed. Do you guys think that the other sense perceptions are also subject to the same potential -- that is, for perception itself to change?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.006.than.html

At Savatthi. "Monks, perception of forms is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

pegembara

Thoughts can be changed, and thus your whole world can be changed. Do you guys think that the other sense perceptions are also subject to the same potential -- that is, for perception itself to change? Or is perception always pure, and our interpretation of perception that is cloudy?

Perception is not pure and is subject to conditioning and change.
No two persons perception of the world are the same. Eg. Some people like black while others think black represents death. Children are cute or are they?

sova

... perception is so closely entwined with feeling and consciousness. See the section on "perception" in this sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

@PedanticPorpoise Thanks very much for the link

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.006.than.html

At Savatthi. "Monks, perception of forms is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

@seeker242 excellent, these were right on the money. Thanks

Tosh

Children are cute or are they?

Children are inherently tyrannical on their own side.

upekka

seeing perception through wisdom is seeing (know) anatta (non-self)

before that there is 'I' within 'me' and whole world is 'over there' (outside of me)
this is what called atta (self)