When monks take a vow of silence for a week or two do they communicate via notes?

RebeccaS

Or any kind of written or prerecorded materials... Kind of like Bumblebee in Transformers I guess or do they have to cut off communication entirely? Could they use sign language? Or does that just defy the point?

Also, I found this story from a monk who took a vow of silence for six years, and went on this amazing pilgrimage. It's really cool http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma9/findreligion.html

youmaywalkalone

From my understanding its no communication at all.

RebeccaS

Not even a nod of the head or anything?

RebeccaS

Can they laugh or cry or anything like that?

how

I've heard of a monks speech being so consistantly adversarial that vows of silence were imposed.
She didn't seem to have any difficulty in silently communicating that same intent through body language.

RebeccaS

I've been thinking about maybe giving it a go for a couple of days, but I'm like, how will I know what my husband wants for dinner?

Sile

I've been thinking about maybe giving it a go for a couple of days, but I'm like, how will I know what my husband wants for dinner?

The great thing about husbands is that they'll generally make it pretty clear on their own.

RebeccaS

Well, he works late so I ask him what he wants so it can be ready when he comes home. Maybe I can get him to make me a list of what he wants beforehand. That works.

Cloud

Ajahn Chah talked about a monk that had taken a vow of silence, but then began passing notes... and said it's basically pointless to take a vow of silence if you're still going to communicate your thoughts like that. There's really no difference.

"Don’t practice like Old Reverend Peh. One Rains Retreat he determined to stop talking. He stopped talking all right but then he started writing notes... “Tomorrow please toast me some rice.” He wanted to eat toasted rice! He stopped talking but ended up writing so many notes that he was even more scattered than before. One minute he’d write one thing, the next another, what a farce! I don’t know why he bothered determining not to talk. He didn’t know what practice is. " (Ajahn Chah)

I guess the point is to know the point! If you're going to stop talking, why?

Sabre

I don't think a long silence is particularly useful in a household environment. Of course you can do an hour or a few hours, I'd advise that. But for multiple days may be a bit much. Of course, still feel free to try it out, but that's just my idea.

It also really shows it's value in a retreat environment. If you are still doing many things in your head (work etc) the vow of silence doesn't add a lot. However, if you are stilling your thoughts, you can notice the difference.

So if you want to give it a go, I'd suggest doing a retreat where this is a part of it. At those retreats you can still communicate the nescessities, I imagine monks would do that as well when they take such a vow.

But I remember some sutta or something on the Buddha disagreeing with such a vow, at least for a long time. That's because monks should be accessible for lay people. Not sure about this though.

Metta!

RebeccaS

Well, I have a bit of a unique situation. I don't work and I don't have any children. My only "job" is to do the laundry and keep the house clean

So I already have an environment that could easily accommodate this kind of thing. I know one of the retreats offered by a local temple includes daily chores, so I wouldn't really be facing anything that different.

It's not something I'd do for a long time because it would be really impractical, but a couple of days (I'm thinking maybe three) wouldn't really inconvenience anything. As for my husband, he'd probably be glad to get a break from my constant nattering! But obviously this is something I'd discuss with him first.

And yes, if it became essential to communicate, the vow would go out of the window, for practicality and sensibility's sake.

It's really not so extreme to be silent for a couple of days. It feels that we because we live in the age of communication, and the idea of not doing the things I normally do - texting, blogging, message boards, emails, is a little daunting.

But I find the idea appealing for the same reason anyone who would go on a retreat does. It's just that thanks to my particular environment I don't have to go away if I don't want to.

how

If I really piss off my partner, those vows of silence just seem to occur naturally.

What do you see a vow of silence doing that a decision to mindfully examine your motivations for speaking, before you speak, can't do?, Lousy sentence structure but I think you get the point

RebeccaS

@How Well, this - "Despite the early difficulties, the majority of the retreat was deeply peaceful, and my concentration improved significantly. As inner-dialogue began to fade, I became less of a hostage to my thoughts and sensations. I began to realize what a gift the retreat was, for it helped me scratch the surface of the joy that results from peacefulness."

http://apps.carleton.edu/career/news/?story_id=716204

And this - "The hardest thing was being patient, watching my mind want to talk. We're really hardwired to communicate. One of the joys of being human is this gift of speech -- it's magic. So, when I just bit that off and stopped talking, it didn't subside for a long time. There was a moment when I noticed that I hadn't been forming words for about a week. At that point, the sutra (religious text) that I carried on my back -- it's the sutra that I was bowing to -- came alive. It was funny -- the words on the page became like a commentary to the world I was seeing around me once my mind was really quiet. What I discovered was that, strangely enough, we are wired to connect to the outside world in really subtle and powerful ways, but once we come inside to live under a roof, all that goes to sleep."

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma9/findreligion.html

It would really take me out of my comfort zone, and maybe shake up my lazy Buddhism

karasti

I tried to maintain a day of silence when I went to the day retreat last weekend, but it was hard because it was something I set about just for me (especially not knowing anyone else at the retreat) butt being as no one else knew, they kept talking to me, hehe. I did manage no talking at all from about 6am until 1pm, which is a record for me, but some of that also included driving which of course required an active mind. Some days I wish i could institute a morning of silence in my house, but I'm afraid the 3 year old won't quite get it yet

I actually find that when I force myself to take tech vacations, the stillness of my mind increases immediately (after the first few hours of "crap, what was I thinking?" and the benefits are immediate and long lasting. It's very hard to do though, especially when my kids communicate by email/text when they are gone from the house. I enjoy the peace I get from unleashing myself from technology though. In this day and age, it's a good step.

RebeccaS

I would also be pretty lax about certain things - I'd still hug my husband and everything like that, but I would try to avoid silent "conversations". Maybe for once my husband will get to speak and I will listen I don't think it means that I should stop listening, just stop talking.

@Karasti, I've never taken a tech vacation before! The closest thing I've ever got is not watching TV for year, but I still listened to the radio and used the computer sometimes (although I didn't have the internet back then). Never really done it, not even for a morning. But I think it could be a really positive thing.

I'd still use my computer for study, though, just not communicating. I don't think typing a search into google counts.

RebeccaS

You know... I spoke to my husband about it and he's totally supportive of it. I mean, it's just 72 hours, 16 of which I'll be sleeping through anyway, and though I'm not saying it will be easy it's certainly not extreme.

I think I'm going to go for it.

Beej

I tried this a few weeks ago just for one day. It was challenging, especially in dealing with my dog because she is very reliant on my verbal cues. I made it about six hours, but when I was outside watering the flowers, my next door neighbor was all, 'hey thanks for mowing my lawn! you didnt have to do that!", but I felt that it was the right thing to do because my mower broke and I borrowed his to cut my lawn, so I was all, "hey, no problem, I was happy to do it!", but I wasnt happy about having to talk to him right then, which made me think about what the heck I was really trying to do with all that silence. After that I just told my dog that I loved her very much, and went and picked up my guitar and starting singing a Decemberists song. All in all it was a very good day. I guess it might help to have other people in your setting taking that ride with you, cause if not you might have to wear a t-shirt explaining your intentions.

how

@How Well, this - "Despite the early difficulties, the majority of the retreat was deeply peaceful, and my concentration improved significantly. As inner-dialogue began to fade, I became less of a hostage to my thoughts and sensations. I began to realize what a gift the retreat was, for it helped me scratch the surface of the joy that results from peacefulness."

http://apps.carleton.edu/career/news/?story_id=716204

And this - "The hardest thing was being patient, watching my mind want to talk. We're really hardwired to communicate. One of the joys of being human is this gift of speech -- it's magic. So, when I just bit that off and stopped talking, it didn't subside for a long time. There was a moment when I noticed that I hadn't been forming words for about a week. At that point, the sutra (religious text) that I carried on my back -- it's the sutra that I was bowing to -- came alive. It was funny -- the words on the page became like a commentary to the world I was seeing around me once my mind was really quiet. What I discovered was that, strangely enough, we are wired to connect to the outside world in really subtle and powerful ways, but once we come inside to live under a roof, all that goes to sleep."

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma9/findreligion.html

It would really take me out of my comfort zone, and maybe shake up my lazy Buddhism

That's a pretty clear answer. It's interesting that we all seem to have one skandha (form, sensation, thought, activity & consciousness) by which we relate to the world. The avenue by which we most strongly learn, delude and identify with. Conversely, its the same dependence on that one Skanda which limits our relationship with the others. I have learned interesting things about my existence by balancing out my attention to the other four skandhas. I wondered at your explanation, if your silences was doing the same thing for you.

RebeccaS

@TheBeejAbides I don't really have to worry about that kind of thing. The cupboards are stocked, the bills are payed, I don't have any prior engagements this week... I don't have to leave my apartment at all if I don't want to I'll just take each situation as it comes.

@How, I'm really sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

Beej

go for it! I also kinda chuckelled once earlier that morning because my dog was confused by me snapping my fingers and flailing my arms to get her to come back in side after a bathroom break. oh and remove that which may stub your toes. its nearly impossible to hold in an 'owwww!' after a good stubbing!

RebeccaS

@TheBeejAbides lol, noted.

how

@How, I'm really sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

The Buddhist shandhas (form, sensation, thought, activity & consciousness) are often as far as we can observe of ourselves through meditative examination. We are not really so much as a entity, but just a loose conglomeration of these phenomena.
Our thought is just one avenue by which we relate to the world about us. form, sensation, activity and consciousness can be the others. It is easy to believe that the avenue that we mostly walk on is the only one of importance but for an artist it might be sensation,for the physically vain it might be form. etc.
Your silence might just be pushing you down different avenues (Skandas and their views) you don't normally bother with or by governing the one that you identify with (thought, & it's communication) you see the world (& that sutra) beyond your normal favoured street views..

Sabre

Well, I have a bit of a unique situation. I don't work and I don't have any children. My only "job" is to do the laundry and keep the house clean

So I already have an environment that could easily accommodate this kind of thing. I know one of the retreats offered by a local temple includes daily chores, so I wouldn't really be facing anything that different.

It's not something I'd do for a long time because it would be really impractical, but a couple of days (I'm thinking maybe three) wouldn't really inconvenience anything. As for my husband, he'd probably be glad to get a break from my constant nattering! But obviously this is something I'd discuss with him first.

And yes, if it became essential to communicate, the vow would go out of the window, for practicality and sensibility's sake.

It's really not so extreme to be silent for a couple of days. It feels that we because we live in the age of communication, and the idea of not doing the things I normally do - texting, blogging, message boards, emails, is a little daunting.

But I find the idea appealing for the same reason anyone who would go on a retreat does. It's just that thanks to my particular environment I don't have to go away if I don't want to.

Ok than good luck!

I live alone so to keep silent is even easier. (in the weekends, that is)
Sometimes strange to hear myself talking again on monday if I didn't say a lot in the weekend.

karasti

I wonder how long a person would have to go without talking before they'd start to forget how to do it.
When I was looking for information from another thread (about staying in a monastery) I found a place that does 3 year retreats, and during the time you are there, you aren't allowed any contact with anyone other than those at the retreat (not even phone calls or email) and even then they only talk at lunch time. I'm not sure I can even fathom what that would be like.

@RebeccaS-good luck! I hope you'll let us know how it goes, and how you figure out what to make for dinner Maybe make a menu ahead of time so you already know what to make. Or just make what you know he likes. My family probably wishes I'd take 3 days of silence, especially the teenager

RebeccaS

@How, I didn't really think of it in those terms, but it might turn out that way!

Thanks for all the support everyone! It's really appreciated

federica

Well, he works late so I ask him what he wants so it can be ready when he comes home. Maybe I can get him to make me a list of what he wants beforehand. That works.

He can't communicate that to you unprompted? Tell him to tell you before he leaves in the morning, or he can grab a burger on the way home. He's not doing the silent bit, you are. I would presume his voice still works and your ears do likewise (unlike mine....!) So he can still tell you, even though you may not be able to reply.

I did one whole week's sponsored silence, once, for the RNID. it's easy after the first day.

RebeccaS

Yeah we figured it out, he's just going to tell me before he leaves in the morning, and if he forgets... He can like what he gets

Zayl

I'm not much of a talker already so I'm sure I could do it for a short time, but not for years as some do. I wonder though, is there ever a situation where it would be alright to break a vow of silence? say during an emergency of some sort?

federica

Actions speak louder than words. Instead of "look out, there's a piano falling!" just give the kid a shove....!

When I did my week's sponsored silence (bear in mind I'm not a monastic) I had a small note telling people exactly that. This increased my sponsors, who thought it was a novel idea, and brought the worms out of the woodwork. The morons who did everything they could to make me speak, and who - I'm delighted to say - failed miserably. It's amazing what a withering look can convey.... :rolleyes: I had a sandwich-delivery job at the time - working for a catering company that prepared lunches for businesses in the area, who would call in with an order in the morning, then I'd deliver the goods... so i saw a lot of people during the week. I mean, A LOT. It was astounding. People i worked with, day in, day out, actually began writing things down for me, because they figured, as I'd lost my power of speech, i had to be deaf as well.... in fact, people began talking about me - in front of me! - under the impression i couldn't hear them! People are bizarre!

DairyLama

Or any kind of written or prerecorded materials... Kind of like Bumblebee in Transformers I guess or do they have to cut off communication entirely? Could they use sign language? Or does that just defy the point?

I've done a number of silent retreats, and a bit of sign language works fine - and I remember reading that 90-something % of communication is non-verbal anyway?
There are a number of benefits from not talking - one is a calmer mind, another is a greater awareness of other people and what they need.

Another approach is to do a solitary retreat, which I would highly recommend.

RebeccaS

I did it! It was really awesome. I just wanted to thank you guys for your wisdom and support, and if you're interested, I wrote about my experience here http://rebeccastibrany.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/right-speech/

Beej

@RebeccaS- :clap:

karasti

@RebeccaS, I really enjoyed your blog post about your 3 days. I'm glad it was successful for you, and gave you some realizations!

RebeccaS

Thanks guys