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We could call ourselves "G's Girl Gang". (What is it with me and alliteration?) C'mon! Who wants to be a "G Girl"? Anyone? Hello? (Is this thing on...?)
We could call ourselves "G's Girl Gang". (What is it with me and alliteration?) C'mon! Who wants to be a "G Girl"? Anyone? Hello? (Is this thing on...?)
I hope this isn't a "Girls Club" forming here..:cheer:
I'm just catching up on this thread - and I am so angry for you!! You should be given your belongings , damn it !!!! Especially items such as your diary and bowls.
I'm in Michigan - if there is ANYTHING I can do , please just let me know.
Thank you Michelle. I owe you my gratitude too. I'm hoping to get my things back on Saturday if things work out. Apparantly, my asking for my things is also seen as harrassment and Annie didn't want me contacting her even for that. When asked how I was supposed to get my things otherwise, there was of course no response. I'm not angry, but I am baffled by that mindset.
You are very welcome, Genryu. I will be thinking of you on Saturday and sending lots of positive energy.
I, too, am baffled by that mindset ( but not enlightened enough not to be angry). They are YOUR belongings, YOU should have them. I hope you don't mind that I ran the situation by my husband . He's a deputy and I thought he might have some advice. He said the best thing to do is have an officer go with you ( or with someone you have apppointed in your place).Of course he then went off on a legal tangent I don't understand, but I would be happy to share with you if you would like.
I truly am thinking of you and hoping for the best possible outcome. I know you have gone through more than anyone should ever have to- and I send you healing thoughts daily.
Words can not fully express my thoughts adequately. Know that Michelle has given words to my sentiments toward your situation my friend.
Best of Wishes to you always
Steve
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited July 2006
Hey, 'G' Gals... if we let XrayMan string along, that will make us the G-String gals.... and yes, Brigid, bring the Cain...!
ZM... Let us know how it goes....whether it's you who goes over, or someone on your behalf. I think you may need to make an itemised list, and that the person picking up your stuff be allowed to inspect it, there and then, on the premises, in front of the escorting Officer...just to make sure there is no damage or vandalism.
Wait....got to stop laughing before I can type...G spot...LOL!!... That's hilarious!
O.K. I propose a new name. How about "The Monk's Mob"? All genders welcome...We could deep bow you-know-who into compliance with the law and we could stand right behind the good officer looking gentle but fiercely determined.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited July 2006
Now ya see....!!??
make it all politickly correct, and all the fun goes outta the winder...!!
But it just goes to show we're all rootin' fer ya, ZM!! Even the guys with skirt envy (to keep it clean....!):o
Hi Genryu
something i came across when reading about Ven M K Gandhi which brought you to mind and seeemed kinda relevant..he says :-
"It has always been a mystery to me how men can feel themselves honoured by the humiliation of their fellow beings"
hey look if 3somes, g spots and/or gstrings are your "things" girls, and I'm invited hell I'M IN! WOOHOO!
DISCLAIMER: I'd like to apologise for Xrayman's alter-ego right now-he's disgusting. I just don't know why I continue to hang around with him... tsk tsk.
Well, Rev. How are you doing? Is there anything you need from us? Is there anything I can do to help you through this? I could start an IV on this woman and give her some........OOPS, illegal! But fun as can be! I could make her life miserable or send her to one of the hells real quick.
LOL! Thanks for the offer Jerry and I've got to admit it's tempting sometimes when I do feel angry. I think that Annie manages to put herself in an unpleasant place without anyone else's help though. The problem is that she blames others for it, particularly those close to her and, as I found out when I spoke to her parents, it's a pattern that's repeated itself throughout her life, which is interesting from a psychological standpoint. Annie seems to reach a point, with those who care about her, where suddenly they are demonized, pushed away and made the scapegoats for whatever her perceived problems at the time happen to be. That there is no insight or awareness that she's doing this (and she's very intelligent), is one of the things that surprises me, as does the mindset that sees other people as objects to be made use of and discarded when they either fulfill their use or confront any disfunction on her part.
When I met Annie, she was in a one bedroom, moldy apartment, shared with a thoroughly useless roomate, and with two children, living on $300 a month. She had a lousy self image and little confidence in her own abilities. When she reached the point, with my encouragement, where she was on about $3000 a month and a decent house, with the kids in school, she told me that she had no further use for me, particularly since I refused any longer to clean up after the dysfunctional housemate who did not clean up after himself and even expected me to clean his dishes. I was told that my eating her food was a burden. As I only ate one meal a day on average this really shocked me. I was given two days to leave, regardless of whether I had somewhere to go or not. I read on her blog subsequently that she didn't see why she should feed and house someone that she didn't care about and that her giving me a few hundred dollars to get a ticket and to live on for a few weeks was 'bribery'.
How on earth do you counter that? What sort of private hell is someone in who is so out of contact with human feeling that they feel that that's somehow okay. I am told a lot that I will never be able to understand that sort of disconnect with reality but I can't seem to stop trying to understand. I don't read her blog anymore though, it's just too painful.
Rev. Genryu,
In a way, I can relate. After years of abuse, I was able to finally get out from under my father's thumb. Then I tried to make sense out of it. What ended up happening is that I finally realized that there was no sense to be made out of it. We may find "reasons" for the person's behavior at the time, but it doesn't change what they have done. It may never make sense to us and that is a good thing. When it starts to make sense is when it's time to worry!
What is one to do? Try and work on healing ourselves. If you are of this type, write it all out. Get every last bit of emotion you can drain out of it on paper (or monitor if you like). Once you get it out and look at it, it really does look quite different. Also, when you are ready, forgive her. That's a toughie! I had to forgive Daddy Dearest in order to save my sanity. You may or may not have similar circumstances. Annie does seem to be a bit warped and unable of any empathy in what you've said. When the roommate finds out, it will be interesting to see if he contacts you. If not, forgive him too!
Just know I'm thinking of you and hoping for your full recovery from this rather unpleasant situation.
You might have a look at some literature on Borderline Personality Disorder. Far be it from me to diagnose a mental illness but your description brought this disorder to mind. I don't know, but it may help in understanding her behaviour better. People with BPD can go from hot to cold in a blink of the eye and often complain of feeling "empty" inside.
I realize that you've got to find a way to heal even if you never find out why she behaved the way she did but I also know that gaining a little insight can put some things to rest. The key is to find ways to disentangle yourself from her and those are time, work and Buddhism.
Brigid, thanks for that, I considered BPD, but I think the symptoms I saw are much closer to Narcisstic Personality Disorder. I really don't know for sure. I hope that things are resolved but can't honestly see it happening. And I know that I need to disentangle myself but my feelings for the childre especially make that tough work and I do feel that gaining some insight might help in the longer term, but agree with Jerry that I may never be able to make sense of what happened.
As for the roommate, he is highly disfunctional, and uses a strategy of learned helplessness - (forgive the psychological terminology here but I was, believe it or not, trained as a pyschologist lol) - to manipulate and control others. I sometimes wonder why I didn't see things clearer beforehand, especially since I felt that I 'should have seen the signs', but somehow the dots never connected and I thought that if I kept showing that I cared and kept supporting her, then things would get better. I too was dysfunctional. It was naieve and impractical and I'm only sorry that I couldn't have done more.
................. I sometimes wonder why I didn't see things clearer beforehand, especially since I felt that I 'should have seen the signs', but somehow the dots never connected and I thought that if I kept showing that I cared and kept supporting her, then things would get better. I too was dysfunctional. It was naieve and impractical and I'm only sorry that I couldn't have done more.
When you're up to your elbows in mud and trying to escape the alligators, it is hard to remember that you started out to drain the swamp.
Have you ever spent any time studying the Enneagram, ZM?
Brigid, thanks for that, I considered BPD, but I think the symptoms I saw are much closer to Narcisstic Personality Disorder. I really don't know for sure.
Honestly, from my experience, I would say that the two are not mutually exclusive. BPD, Bi-Polar, etc all seem to play off of each other and really bring about this erratic behavior in ways that are unpredictable and cannot be fully understood, as the individual is not aware enough of their own mental processes which underlie the behaviors. A lot of this sort of stuff is based on fear/anxiety which they've fed into, creating a habitual response that makes certain triggers out to be bigger & bigger crises which they are not capable of overcoming. Basically, the erratic behavior is a fight or flight response of a psychological degree with no awareness or intelligence applied. They simply run away from whatever it is that frightens them & develop aspects of their personalities which can avoid this sort of confrontation. This character seems to form around this intentional blindspot and has become so ingrained that there is no longer any acknowledgement that there is anything there at all.
Intelligent as an individual may be, moods and sensations can overpower rationality in the snap of a finger, and without conscious effort to become very aware of how this all works, this blind reactions will devolop into deeply ingrained quirks and/or disorders.
Anyway, no psychologist here, but I do have some experience in these matters.
Yes, I was thinking maybe a combo of BPD and Narcissistic PD, which is more common, I think, than suffering from only one or the other. These things are certainly not clear cut.
Maybe thinking along the lines of a mental illness could make it slighter easier to feel empathy for the sufferer, although I know, Genryu, that you already feel that anyway.
When you're up to your elbows in mud and trying to escape the alligators, it is hard to remember that you started out to drain the swamp.
Have you ever spent any time studying the Enneagram, ZM?
I have to admit that I haven't no. And that's a good point about the alligators and the swamp too. I remember when I first felt that I'd hit rock bottom and had myself admitted to hospital, Annie talked of it as being a 'vacation' for me. One thing that was made clear to me by the doctors there is that I was simply overwhelmed by trying to care for a household that was deeply dysfunctional, with no real help or even understanding from anyone in the household, and also because of my response to the death of the children's father at that time, which bought up for me, echoes of separation from my own father at the age of five. I was told that I was trying to bear the weight of everything on my shoulders and that it was simply too much.
I spoke to one doctor from there recently and he was horrified and even apologetic at what had happened and expressed the opinion that had he known more about Annie, he would have advised me at all costs to end the relationship as quickly as possible. I told him that since I myself didn't see clearly how she was, I certainly didn't expect him to, and that I had made my own decisions and was responsible for them. What he did say, that I found helpful, is that for my ex to say the things she has is, in itself, evidence of deep damage and a complete lack of empathy, or even abstract understanding of normal human emotion, let alone real intimacy or love, and that part of my search for a rational answer might in fact be because part of me still buys into what my ex projected. So by seeking a rational answer to something that is essentially irrational, and even though I know I was not as I was projected to be, it's a way of not looking at my own dysfunction in internalising what Annie projected (and yes I hate jargon, particularly psychological jargon) and of being codependant as a 'saviour' as he put it. I was told that that is likely to be with me for a long time to come. What amazed the good doctor is not that I hit bottom again and felt suicidal, but that I was still alive at all.
That makes very good sense to me, Genryu. We're always doing something to avoid seeing the truth and I can now see an experience of my own from a few years ago in a new light. I was searching for a rational reason for the behaviour of an ex like you are and now that I think about it, the whole time I was trying to figure out his motivation I was ignoring my own role in the whole thing. Once some time had passed and I'd somewhat separated myself from him emotionally I was able to see why I had gotten involved with him in the first place and the moment that I did that all of my complex and painful feelings floated away. So it wasn't about him, it was about me.
Yes, you are the whole universe, manifesting as you. I am the whole universe, manifesting as me.
"But to a Buddhist, the whole world is myself. I am that sucky job. I am the girl who doesn't love me as much as I love her. I am the pair of "vegetarian" Doc Martens I special ordered by mail which pinch my feet so bad I can't wear them for more than 10 minutes and yet cost over a hundred and fifty non-returnable bucks. And this isn't just a way of thinking about things, a philosophical speculation. After a few years of practice this becomes the only possible way of looking at the world that makes any sense at all. You are forced to accept it whether you like it or not. And I, for one, did not like it one teeny little bit when I first noticed it.
When you see things this way it's hard to stay very angry. You find you cannot blame anyone for what's wrong in your life. Who are you gonna blame or get angry at? You could get angry at yourself. But you've already seen that "self" is an illusion. So what's the point? Might as well enjoy your bad hair day, then...
You can't control your circumstances. But how you respond to them is totally up to you. And once you learn to respond better an interesting thing happens. The world starts to behave exactly as you want it to. Is it just that you no longer expect it to behave in any way other than it is? Maybe. And maybe not. Honestly, I'm not sure.
The outside world is not even aware of you. There is no point at all in trying to force your will upon circumstances. The universe couldn't give a rat's ass about what you want it to be. And yet, that universe which doesn't even give a rat's ass about you is you!
There's the magic. That's where things become so beautiful it hurts to even try to comprehend them. You are completely part of this nasty old, beautiful old world. Not just part, even, you are the whole sheebang. Just like a bubble floating on a river, getting pulled this way and that by the currents, rising and falling, eventually to end with a pop after which none of the other bubbles will ever know it was even there. Is that bubble separate from the river or is it just one aspect of the river which we arbitrarily give the name "bubble" to?
How do you live your life when you see things that way? Do you rail with anger that no one will ever know your true feelings? That nobody really cares?
Or do you see things as they are and float along enjoying doing what needs to be done until you can't do anything at all anymore?"
Wow,
I'm going to have to really meditate on that one. It seems to make sense yet it seems contrary to what "I" want. "I" want things "my" way. If everyone just stayed in place in the little play "I" am directing called life, we all would be much happier.
What a cool post, Genryu. Please be patient with us!
Welcome, Pink Lotus. Hope you find a friendly group here.
Whaddya mean, "Hope you find a friendly group here" - ?? Whaddya tryin' to say, huh?? HUH?!? When have we ever been anything BUT friendly, ya great big hairy bear, you!?
Say that again! I dare you!! SAY THAT AGAIN!! :werr:
Comments
I've looked it up.... Slightly less weighty than merely raising Cain....
I hope this isn't a "Girls Club" forming here..:cheer:
brigid... G's girls .. sweeeet!
i call it a three sum.. unless we allow xrayman.. whata think?
I'm just catching up on this thread - and I am so angry for you!! You should be given your belongings , damn it !!!! Especially items such as your diary and bowls.
I'm in Michigan - if there is ANYTHING I can do , please just let me know.
Sending you healing light,
Michelle
I, too, am baffled by that mindset ( but not enlightened enough not to be angry). They are YOUR belongings, YOU should have them. I hope you don't mind that I ran the situation by my husband . He's a deputy and I thought he might have some advice. He said the best thing to do is have an officer go with you ( or with someone you have apppointed in your place).Of course he then went off on a legal tangent I don't understand, but I would be happy to share with you if you would like.
I truly am thinking of you and hoping for the best possible outcome. I know you have gone through more than anyone should ever have to- and I send you healing thoughts daily.
Namaste,
Michelle
Best of Wishes to you always
Steve
ZM... Let us know how it goes....whether it's you who goes over, or someone on your behalf. I think you may need to make an itemised list, and that the person picking up your stuff be allowed to inspect it, there and then, on the premises, in front of the escorting Officer...just to make sure there is no damage or vandalism.
I watch a lot of Judge Judy, ya know.....;)
Kinda wish I had though!
darn ! thats counts me out...being a guy,I probably wont be able to find it :ukflag: !
Wait....got to stop laughing before I can type...G spot...LOL!!... That's hilarious!
O.K. I propose a new name. How about "The Monk's Mob"? All genders welcome...We could deep bow you-know-who into compliance with the law and we could stand right behind the good officer looking gentle but fiercely determined.
make it all politickly correct, and all the fun goes outta the winder...!!
But it just goes to show we're all rootin' fer ya, ZM!! Even the guys with skirt envy (to keep it clean....!):o
still like "G's girls" tho brigid..
if men can find the value of the name then i count them in..
oh my.. still LMAO!!
so keep us dated!
something i came across when reading about Ven M K Gandhi which brought you to mind and seeemed kinda relevant..he says :-
"It has always been a mystery to me how men can feel themselves honoured by the humiliation of their fellow beings"
just a thought..all the best wishes
DISCLAIMER: I'd like to apologise for Xrayman's alter-ego right now-he's disgusting. I just don't know why I continue to hang around with him... tsk tsk.
signed Xrayman's alter-alter-ego.
When I met Annie, she was in a one bedroom, moldy apartment, shared with a thoroughly useless roomate, and with two children, living on $300 a month. She had a lousy self image and little confidence in her own abilities. When she reached the point, with my encouragement, where she was on about $3000 a month and a decent house, with the kids in school, she told me that she had no further use for me, particularly since I refused any longer to clean up after the dysfunctional housemate who did not clean up after himself and even expected me to clean his dishes. I was told that my eating her food was a burden. As I only ate one meal a day on average this really shocked me. I was given two days to leave, regardless of whether I had somewhere to go or not. I read on her blog subsequently that she didn't see why she should feed and house someone that she didn't care about and that her giving me a few hundred dollars to get a ticket and to live on for a few weeks was 'bribery'.
How on earth do you counter that? What sort of private hell is someone in who is so out of contact with human feeling that they feel that that's somehow okay. I am told a lot that I will never be able to understand that sort of disconnect with reality but I can't seem to stop trying to understand. I don't read her blog anymore though, it's just too painful.
In a way, I can relate. After years of abuse, I was able to finally get out from under my father's thumb. Then I tried to make sense out of it. What ended up happening is that I finally realized that there was no sense to be made out of it. We may find "reasons" for the person's behavior at the time, but it doesn't change what they have done. It may never make sense to us and that is a good thing. When it starts to make sense is when it's time to worry!
What is one to do? Try and work on healing ourselves. If you are of this type, write it all out. Get every last bit of emotion you can drain out of it on paper (or monitor if you like). Once you get it out and look at it, it really does look quite different. Also, when you are ready, forgive her. That's a toughie! I had to forgive Daddy Dearest in order to save my sanity. You may or may not have similar circumstances. Annie does seem to be a bit warped and unable of any empathy in what you've said. When the roommate finds out, it will be interesting to see if he contacts you. If not, forgive him too!
Just know I'm thinking of you and hoping for your full recovery from this rather unpleasant situation.
You might have a look at some literature on Borderline Personality Disorder. Far be it from me to diagnose a mental illness but your description brought this disorder to mind. I don't know, but it may help in understanding her behaviour better. People with BPD can go from hot to cold in a blink of the eye and often complain of feeling "empty" inside.
I realize that you've got to find a way to heal even if you never find out why she behaved the way she did but I also know that gaining a little insight can put some things to rest. The key is to find ways to disentangle yourself from her and those are time, work and Buddhism.
As for the roommate, he is highly disfunctional, and uses a strategy of learned helplessness - (forgive the psychological terminology here but I was, believe it or not, trained as a pyschologist lol) - to manipulate and control others. I sometimes wonder why I didn't see things clearer beforehand, especially since I felt that I 'should have seen the signs', but somehow the dots never connected and I thought that if I kept showing that I cared and kept supporting her, then things would get better. I too was dysfunctional. It was naieve and impractical and I'm only sorry that I couldn't have done more.
When you're up to your elbows in mud and trying to escape the alligators, it is hard to remember that you started out to drain the swamp.
Have you ever spent any time studying the Enneagram, ZM?
Honestly, from my experience, I would say that the two are not mutually exclusive. BPD, Bi-Polar, etc all seem to play off of each other and really bring about this erratic behavior in ways that are unpredictable and cannot be fully understood, as the individual is not aware enough of their own mental processes which underlie the behaviors. A lot of this sort of stuff is based on fear/anxiety which they've fed into, creating a habitual response that makes certain triggers out to be bigger & bigger crises which they are not capable of overcoming. Basically, the erratic behavior is a fight or flight response of a psychological degree with no awareness or intelligence applied. They simply run away from whatever it is that frightens them & develop aspects of their personalities which can avoid this sort of confrontation. This character seems to form around this intentional blindspot and has become so ingrained that there is no longer any acknowledgement that there is anything there at all.
Intelligent as an individual may be, moods and sensations can overpower rationality in the snap of a finger, and without conscious effort to become very aware of how this all works, this blind reactions will devolop into deeply ingrained quirks and/or disorders.
Anyway, no psychologist here, but I do have some experience in these matters.
_/\_
metta
Maybe thinking along the lines of a mental illness could make it slighter easier to feel empathy for the sufferer, although I know, Genryu, that you already feel that anyway.
I have to admit that I haven't no. And that's a good point about the alligators and the swamp too. I remember when I first felt that I'd hit rock bottom and had myself admitted to hospital, Annie talked of it as being a 'vacation' for me. One thing that was made clear to me by the doctors there is that I was simply overwhelmed by trying to care for a household that was deeply dysfunctional, with no real help or even understanding from anyone in the household, and also because of my response to the death of the children's father at that time, which bought up for me, echoes of separation from my own father at the age of five. I was told that I was trying to bear the weight of everything on my shoulders and that it was simply too much.
I spoke to one doctor from there recently and he was horrified and even apologetic at what had happened and expressed the opinion that had he known more about Annie, he would have advised me at all costs to end the relationship as quickly as possible. I told him that since I myself didn't see clearly how she was, I certainly didn't expect him to, and that I had made my own decisions and was responsible for them. What he did say, that I found helpful, is that for my ex to say the things she has is, in itself, evidence of deep damage and a complete lack of empathy, or even abstract understanding of normal human emotion, let alone real intimacy or love, and that part of my search for a rational answer might in fact be because part of me still buys into what my ex projected. So by seeking a rational answer to something that is essentially irrational, and even though I know I was not as I was projected to be, it's a way of not looking at my own dysfunction in internalising what Annie projected (and yes I hate jargon, particularly psychological jargon) and of being codependant as a 'saviour' as he put it. I was told that that is likely to be with me for a long time to come. What amazed the good doctor is not that I hit bottom again and felt suicidal, but that I was still alive at all.
"But to a Buddhist, the whole world is myself. I am that sucky job. I am the girl who doesn't love me as much as I love her. I am the pair of "vegetarian" Doc Martens I special ordered by mail which pinch my feet so bad I can't wear them for more than 10 minutes and yet cost over a hundred and fifty non-returnable bucks. And this isn't just a way of thinking about things, a philosophical speculation. After a few years of practice this becomes the only possible way of looking at the world that makes any sense at all. You are forced to accept it whether you like it or not. And I, for one, did not like it one teeny little bit when I first noticed it.
When you see things this way it's hard to stay very angry. You find you cannot blame anyone for what's wrong in your life. Who are you gonna blame or get angry at? You could get angry at yourself. But you've already seen that "self" is an illusion. So what's the point? Might as well enjoy your bad hair day, then...
You can't control your circumstances. But how you respond to them is totally up to you. And once you learn to respond better an interesting thing happens. The world starts to behave exactly as you want it to. Is it just that you no longer expect it to behave in any way other than it is? Maybe. And maybe not. Honestly, I'm not sure.
The outside world is not even aware of you. There is no point at all in trying to force your will upon circumstances. The universe couldn't give a rat's ass about what you want it to be. And yet, that universe which doesn't even give a rat's ass about you is you!
There's the magic. That's where things become so beautiful it hurts to even try to comprehend them. You are completely part of this nasty old, beautiful old world. Not just part, even, you are the whole sheebang. Just like a bubble floating on a river, getting pulled this way and that by the currents, rising and falling, eventually to end with a pop after which none of the other bubbles will ever know it was even there. Is that bubble separate from the river or is it just one aspect of the river which we arbitrarily give the name "bubble" to?
How do you live your life when you see things that way? Do you rail with anger that no one will ever know your true feelings? That nobody really cares?
Or do you see things as they are and float along enjoying doing what needs to be done until you can't do anything at all anymore?"
- Brad Warner - Bad Hair Day
- Brad Warner - Bad Hair Day
I'm going to have to really meditate on that one. It seems to make sense yet it seems contrary to what "I" want. "I" want things "my" way. If everyone just stayed in place in the little play "I" am directing called life, we all would be much happier.
What a cool post, Genryu. Please be patient with us!
There is a time to remain composed and let things pass by as they come,
There is a time to scale up the height of perfection when you are a student and still young,
There is a time to retrospect the bygone days and learn but never to cling to anyone,
There is a time to be quiet when all that you see frown,
There is a time to swim in gaity like the white cloud in the sky,
There is a time to sing a sweet song but you are the only one who can hear,
There is a time to sustain in solitude when the down-tide makes you sigh,
There is a time to blow like the wind in autumn before Sunset,
And there is a time to say - "Yes"
all these made the life beautiful but one day I must bid good-bye! (anicca)[/
-bf
Whaddya mean, "Hope you find a friendly group here" - ?? Whaddya tryin' to say, huh?? HUH?!? When have we ever been anything BUT friendly, ya great big hairy bear, you!?
Say that again! I dare you!! SAY THAT AGAIN!! :werr:
put up your dukes.