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Work related moral dilemma

mindatriskmindatrisk Veteran
edited September 2012 in General Banter
Hello...

4 months ago I applied for a job at where I volunteered. The job was an overnight support worker, and it was a sleep-in role, i.e. I had a bed, I could sleep overnight, but I had to be available if a client needed assistance. I got the job, but a few days later I was told that the man in charge of the funding for the job role from the local housing office had decided that the role could not be sleep-in, but instead I (and the other guy doing my opposite shifts) would have to stay awake all night.

The reason I applied for this job in particular was because i'd be able to continue volunteering through the day, which is what I most love. Obviously, staying awake all night would mean that i'd have to sleep through the day. I emailed my manager when this change was announced and told him that I would sleep through the shift anyway since that was what the initial role was for and I saw no reason to obey one man who has nothing to do with our organisation.

So, over the 4 months i've done the job I have mostly slept, except for one 4 week period where I attempted to stay up all night and sleep through the (sunny) days, which was very, very difficult, and required a lot of coffee (not good for my health).

I'd just like to know what people here think. On the one hand I am being dishonest because the job is now meant to be a stay-awake role, and I expect that my manager believes that I am staying awake. On the other hand, it was not my manager who wanted me to be awake all night, it was someone outside of the organisation, plus the job does not require me to be awake - NOTHING happens overnight! - and by sleeping overnight I can volunteer through the day and do good.

Am I doing wrong in deceiving the funder? Or am I morally justified because more good is done by me sleeping through the night as I can volunteer?

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Does the job specification mention a description of the role, including the sleep/awake requirements?
    How long is your probationary period?
    Have you a written contract?

    On conditions of the above, I'd discuss this with someone....
    They can't change the conditions of the role without agreement and consultation.
    if they want to impose fundamental changes, they'd need to agree to dismiss you then re-employ you under the new conditions...
  • There is a contract but I haven't signed it yet. I'm not sure there is a probationary period. The role was advertised as sleep-in, and I accepted the role on that basis, and then within a few days of accepting it I was told it would be a waking role. The problem I had at the time was that i'd been on employment benefits and i'd notified them that i'd got the job, and so when the changes to the role occurred I couldn't turn down the job because i'd not be able to return to benefits having been offered a job.

    The question that bothers me is the moral one. I am being deceitful by sleeping when the role requires that I stay awake, but since the original job was a sleep-in role, and since there is no actual need for me to be awake, and since by sleeping on the job I can go and do volunteer work through the day that benefits others, is my deceit justified, or is all deceit wrong?

  • Am I doing wrong in deceiving the funder? Or am I morally justified because more good is done by me sleeping through the night as I can volunteer?

    I don't think morals are objective truths and in Buddhism intention seems to be everything. We can do the same act with different intentions, and one would be classed as skilful and the other unskilful. How? Well if I gave Fed a present to make her happy, my intentions would be skilful. But if I gave Fed a present so that she would favour me in some way, my intention wouldn't be honest. So the same act can be skilful or unskilful.

    So, if your intention is that if you get a sneaky sleep in, that this makes you more useful for the well being of others, then I would say that is moral. But if your intention is to sleep so you in effect get paid for sleeping and being dishonest at the same time, then it's immoral.

    In A.A. we have a saying, 'To thine own self be true'. I guess only you can decide if it's moral or not.

    I'd be interested in reading some other comments, especially if they're contrary to what I've posted. Thanks.

  • I like your view. My intent remains exactly as it was when I applied for the job, and that is... 'Great, I will get paid whilst I sleep which means my days are free for positive activities, i.e. volunteering'. I am secure in my intent. Curiously, it is with recovering alcoholics and drug addicts that I support.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Perhaps it is different where Federica lives, but think of this real scenario: a school system hires you to tend the furnace that heats the plant, and your job responsibilities include shoveling coal into the furnace. Later, the school system installs a new heating system that runs on natural gas. They don't have to continue to pay you to shovel imaginary coal into an nonexistent coal furnace.

    A company (at least here in the States) has the freedom to change job descriptions at any time...and they do. While one job description is in place, yes, they must evaluate you and handle you as an employee based on that job description. Of course, when a job description changes, you have the right to say no...and leave the job.

    Keep in mind, that you're being paid to do what a "boss" wants you to do. I sometimes had teachers who acted as if they were independent contractors, and thought they could teach any way or any content they saw fit. But they weren't independent contractors. They had signed a contract to work the way the School Board wanted them to work. And it happened to me, as a principal, as well. I took orders from the Assistant Superintendent...and he took orders from the Superintendent...and he took order from the School Board. And yes, sometimes people who wanted to assert their independence learned what that independence cost -- they got "let go".

    This is an inherent challenge in many, many jobs and occupations. It's why some people prefer to start their own business, so that they can be their own bosses.

    Your intent may be good (and as I read more of what you write over-time, I think it is). But intent is no what someone is paying you for...as much as we may wish it is.



    Kangaroo
  • vinlyn said:

    Perhaps it is different where Federica lives, but think of this real scenario: a school system hires you to tend the furnace that heats the plant, and your job responsibilities include shoveling coal into the furnace. Later, the school system installs a new heating system that runs on natural gas. They don't have to continue to pay you to shovel imaginary coal into an nonexistent coal furnace.

    A company (at least here in the States) has the freedom to change job descriptions at any time...and they do. While one job description is in place, yes, they must evaluate you and handle you as an employee based on that job description. Of course, when a job description changes, you have the right to say no...and leave the job.

    Keep in mind, that you're being paid to do what a "boss" wants you to do. I sometimes had teachers who acted as if they were independent contractors, and thought they could teach any way or any content they saw fit. But they weren't independent contractors. They had signed a contract to work the way the School Board wanted them to work. And it happened to me, as a principal, as well. I took orders from the Assistant Superintendent...and he took orders from the Superintendent...and he took order from the School Board. And yes, sometimes people who wanted to assert their independence learned what that independence cost -- they got "let go".

    This is an inherent challenge in many, many jobs and occupations. It's why some people prefer to start their own business, so that they can be their own bosses.

    Your intent may be good (and as I read more of what you write over-time, I think it is). But intent is no what someone is paying you for...as much as we may wish it is.


    It's difficult to compare situations. The point is that management wanted the job to be a sleep-in role - it didn't change because they wanted it to change, it changed because someone across town who has no relation to our organisation decided that, without any understanding or awareness of the organisation or the role, we should have to stay awake all night. Am I morally obliged to respect that one individuals decision, even though my own management did not agree but were forced to acquiesce, or am I morally free to disregard their determinations in view of a higher good being served?

    Your position - adherence to chain of command - is a tricky rule to determine my actions in this case. There are plenty of situations in life where disobedience to a chain of command is accepted as the right thing to do - i'm just wondering whether this is, or can be, one of them.






  • ...man in charge of the funding for the job role from the local housing office had decided that the role could not be sleep-in, but instead I (and the other guy doing my opposite shifts) would have to stay awake all night...

    ...I saw no reason to obey one man who has nothing to do with our organisation...

    IMO this man has everything to do with your organisation. I guarantee someone above you answers to him. If something goes wrong on your watch, it will be your responsibility and your superiors will have no choice but to terminate your employment AND your volunteer work as you are now a liability.

    I'd just like to know what people here think. On the one hand I am being dishonest because the job is now meant to be a stay-awake role, and I expect that my manager believes that I am staying awake. On the other hand, it was not my manager who wanted me to be awake all night, it was someone outside of the organisation, plus the job does not require me to be awake - NOTHING happens overnight! - and by sleeping overnight I can volunteer through the day and do good.

    Am I doing wrong in deceiving the funder? Or am I morally justified because more good is done by me sleeping through the night as I can volunteer?

    Work conditions and policies are constantly changing and as employees we are required to change with them regardless of the original job description or the length of time we've served. If you were informed, which you were, you are required to comply.

    It sounds like you enjoy the daytime volunteer aspect of the job. Put your energy there when you can but find another means of employment where you are willing to do the job that they asked you to do.
  • I have to agree with Kangaroo.

    Unless there are official channels to put forth your case for why sleeping would be a better way to serve the community (and I don't mean for you personally, I mean the role regardless of your personal situation with volunteering in the daytime) I think you need to do what you're told. You can't really quit because the Job Center will tell you to fuck off if you've only been there a few weeks, so it's a bit of a catch 22 in terms of staying or leaving, but they might fire you if they find out you're not doing the job as outlined and JC don't like that, either.

    They can change your role any time they like, and you can take it or leave it, but they obviously feel a waking role would be the best way to serve their clients, and if you feel that isn't the best way for you to serve, well, you're replaceable. :shrugs: Sorry.
  • I have an 'opposite' too, and he sleeps on the job and feels justified. His feeling is that we accepted a job on certain terms that came with a corresponding wage... £12,000 a year for a sleep-in role, which is reasonable enough, and for him, that role allowed him to also do some work through the day to top up his wage as £12,000 is not really a living wage in the UK. But £12,000 a year to stay up all night is a very, very different job role to £12,000 a year to sleep.

    Moral dilemmas do my head in. My feeling has always been that the right thing to do is to stay awake as the role requires, but that the rational thing to do is to sleep.

    Just to clarify, it wasn't management who wanted to change the role to stay-awake, it was a guy from the council's housing office who refused to pay someone to be asleep, and in fact, management fought long and hard on this point but had to accept the council's choice. This is the point that jars with me, because the only person being deceived is someone i've never met, never will meet, has nothing to do with the organisation, but for his own reasons decided that our management didn't know what was right for the role and determined it otherwise. And yet, it makes NO difference to that man whether I sleep or not.

    I'm meeting management on monday about my contract. If it states that I am expected to stay awake all night then I think i'll be honest and let them decide how to move forwards, but if it is not in my contract that I am to stay up all night then I am not officially doing anything wrong. Also, management has said that should we fall asleep then so be it... thus it comes down to accidental sleeping and purposeful sleeping, or, slumping in the chair and laying out a sleeping bag and pillow...
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran

    I emailed my manager when this change was announced and told him that I would sleep through the shift anyway since that was what the initial role was for and I saw no reason to obey one man who has nothing to do with our organisation.

    What was his response to this?
  • I emailed my manager when this change was announced and told him that I would sleep through the shift anyway since that was what the initial role was for and I saw no reason to obey one man who has nothing to do with our organisation.

    What was his response to this?
    He said something along the lines of me doing what I feel is right. My honest feeling is that management are pretty happy to look the other way... or just straight up don't care. For example, they needed urgent cover for a night shift and asked one of their daytime employees if he could cover, and so he ended up working from 9am straight through the day and night until 8am the next day - 23 hours lol, and I can't believe there is any way that they expected him to stay awake through that night shift, but that is irrelevant. I don't care whether they turn a blind eye or not, it's about how I feel about this and whether I feel I am doing wrong.

    I don't want to be a dishonest person, nor deceitful, but I also don't want to be an idiot. In 4 months of working night shifts not once have I been needed through the night in any way, and even if I was, I am easily contactable, so in a rational sense there is no good reason to stay awake, but morally I am being deceitful, all be it, deceiving someone completely removed from our organisation. Is this small deceit justified? Can deceit be 'small'? Can it be balanced in favour of being positive by how I utilise that deceit, i.e. by using my time to volunteer?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Beware of "do what you feel is right". I know of people who have been told that, and done that, and then dismissed.
    ThePensum
  • Yeah, I think i'm just going to have to flow with it, and should it end up as that then so be it, although, I think i'd be warned first.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    A fair employer always gives a warning to allow for improvement.
  • Just how much does sleeping pay an hour?
  • Min wage... £6 hour.
  • Wow 6 pounds is min wage? That'd be $9.50 in the States... here min wage is $7.25 I think.
  • Yeah about £6... maybe £6.10 or something. It is not enough to live on.
  • I'm sure prices for everything are different there. Min wage here isn't really enough to live on either, unless you're single and you don't spend much money on yourself at all (just what you need to live basically).
  • So you want to get paid a living wage to sleep? Me too.
    KangarooRebeccaS
  • Cloud said:

    Wow 6 pounds is min wage? That'd be $9.50 in the States... here min wage is $7.25 I think.

    I think in Canada it's $10? Nowhere near enough. But I think things cost less in the US. Even when CAD and USD are on par everyone nips to Buffalo :lol:
  • Yeah that's why I said "I'm sure prices for everything are different there" in the next post, it's different everywhere.
  • I'm one who works perminant night shift; the issue is what contract if any did you sign? Does the posting/job discription show that the description can be changed by the supervisors or heads of th department?

    If it's say's stay awake, and you don't, discipline can be rendered, under the description, and the all everlasting "dire emergency" that could befall the place.
  • So you want to get paid a living wage to sleep? Me too.

    Nope, i'm happy to take a minimum wage to sleep. :)

  • JohnG said:

    I'm one who works perminant night shift; the issue is what contract if any did you sign? Does the posting/job discription show that the description can be changed by the supervisors or heads of th department?

    If it's say's stay awake, and you don't, discipline can be rendered, under the description, and the all everlasting "dire emergency" that could befall the place.

    No contract yet, but my 'opposite' signed his last week and he said it was just a generic contract with no job requirements included.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    vinlyn said:

    Beware of "do what you feel is right". I know of people who have been told that, and done that, and then dismissed.

    Yes, I love Samuel Goldwyn's quotation on that:

    "I don't want any yes-men around me I want everybody to tell me the truth, even if it costs them their jobs."
  • I suggest you read over your copy of the contract. :om:
  • ...it was a guy from the council's housing office who refused to pay someone to be asleep ... the only person being deceived is someone i've never met, never will meet, has nothing to do with the organisation, but for his own reasons decided that our management didn't know what was right for the role and determined it otherwise.
    hehe we have politicians and bureaucrats in Australia too. I've never met them, nor understand a lot of their decisions that impact me and everyone else.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    federica said:

    vinlyn said:

    Beware of "do what you feel is right". I know of people who have been told that, and done that, and then dismissed.

    Yes, I love Samuel Goldwyn's quotation on that:

    "I don't want any yes-men around me I want everybody to tell me the truth, even if it costs them their jobs."

    I'd never heard that. That's cool (and I generally enjoy his old films).

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    RebeccaS said:

    Cloud said:

    Wow 6 pounds is min wage? That'd be $9.50 in the States... here min wage is $7.25 I think.

    I think in Canada it's $10? Nowhere near enough. But I think things cost less in the US. Even when CAD and USD are on par everyone nips to Buffalo :lol:
    It actually all depends on where you live and adjusted based on cost of living. In Michigan, where I live, it's $7.40... but apparently in San Francisco it's as high as $10.24 and as low as $5.15 in Georgia (WTF?)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages
  • Yeah I think you're right there, it tends to be higher in big cities. It's definitely that way the the UK where a job that pays 12k in the north will pay 20k in London.
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