may we discuss the Diamond Sutra?

magpie

Hello everyone.

I have found this easy to read translation of the Diamond Sutra. I will provide its link below.

I was actually wondering if there may be some on this site who would be willing to walk through this sutra together with me and maybe guide me in understanding some of its more difficult (at least for me) parts?

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/index.html

I look foward to discussion of this.

Angela

magpie

So far, this is the verse where I am stuck. It is in chapter 6:

"Subhuti, any person who awakens faith upon hearing the words or phrases of this Sutra will accumulate countless blessings and merit."

"How do I know this? Because this person must have discarded all arbitrary notions of the existence of a personal self, of other people, or of a universal self. Otherwise their minds would still grasp after such relative conceptions. Furthermore, these people must have already discarded all arbitrary notions of the non-existence of a personal self, other people, or a universal self. Otherwise, their minds would still be grasping at such notions. Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts."

If I am not grasping to relative notions of what it means to be myself and what it means to be yourself (whomever you may be and I think you are...) then how can I not be concerned with and grasping at what it means to not have a self? It seems like as soon as I understand what it means to not really have a self, I am already in the clutches of grasping at/trying to figure out not-self.

The only conclusion I can come to regarding what all this means is this: There is no constant and forever and unchanging thing called Angela. I am different things to different people, no matter how much I'd like to think I am not. I am different in consciousness than I was when I was born. My body isn't the same as it was 7 years ago, and I'm not even my sight or my hearing, else, if I lost even one, that'd be losing myself, since a constant and steady self couldn't change.

If all the above applies to me, it applies to yall too. If it applies to everyone else, it applies to the universe.

Now, for the part about not grasping at the negative of all the above: What this says to me is, don't become so caught up in the idea that I don't exist as to become nihilistic. This is because, in a sense, we do exist! We just don't exist as an unchangable entity. It's good too, because like someone here already said, if we couldn't change, then we couldn't benefit from the Dharma.

So, all in all, what I'm taking away from this Sutra so far is, don't be the me I create and others create for me, but just be, and be in wisdom and compassion and charity.

Now. Where am I wrong and where could more be added so that I don't miss anything?

Thanks guys!!!

Angela

buddhafoot

Wow... that's a tough bill to fill, Angela.

I think you have the gist of what is being stated about "self" down. That's exactly how I'm reading it and interpreting it.

I think that how the quote was given, the end is the key:

Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts.

It would seem to me that while someone is still dealing with the concepts of self and even the notion of such thing - they haven't really attained it. Enlightenment could almost be like breathing - to me. You hardly ever think about it. It just happens. Not to say that you don't know it's happening because if someone asks you "are you breathing" - you can answer the question.

It sounds like if you are still dealing with releasing these notions - if you still have to think about breathing otherwise you stop breathing - you haven't attained to ability of no longer dealing with "self".

At least, that's a quick $0.02 worth of opinion when someone asks

-bf

Brigid

I think you guys are onto something there.

Iawa

For myself the key to this is in the last paragraph.

"When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded. Think Subhuti, isn't it even more obvious that we should also give up our conceptions of non-existent things?"

I think that due to the nature of the conditioned mind one feels that for something to be obtained there must be a passing of time.

"I'll get it tomorrow, I can change that tomorrow."
"I'm not yet ready to give it up."
" I can stop doing this tomorrow it's not really hurting anybody."

As I learned and began to be awake, others around me reminded me when I was slipping back into old patterns of thought and behavior often in the guise of doubting myself. For myself, it is an action of the old structure trying to reestablish itself. "Well, I know I've heard that, but I need to make sure just one more time." I can either sit and intellectualize, or I can pick up my mat and go about the business at hand. Both have their place.

As I see it, it's not that

ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded.

The arbitary concepts must be discarded ( or at least set aside until I next need them ) to be fully present in experience as it unfolds free from judgement or comparison. Otherwise, I'm not present when I'm in relationship with any thing, instead I'm constantly thinking of what needs to be changed rather than being fully present to what is. Which is the only place from which I can take compassionate action.



Just slap me for babbling!! LOL

federica

Lovely post - cutting and pasting in my "memorable lessons"....Might get 'lost in the move' though....How's that for 'transitory'?

Thanks Iawa.....