Being Free

ThailandTom

This thought occurred to me yesterday and I want to put it to the members of this forum. There is this common notion across the western world that people are free, freedom! Heck in the US President Bush even changed 'French fries' to 'Freedom fries' but are you actually free people? I am not asking just people in the US but the entire western world and pretty much everywhere.

If you live in the west in most countries you MUST go to school, even if it will provide an education it is not your choice, that is from the age of 4-16 in the UK at least of your life. You can home school of course but you have to study for this duration. What if you don't want to and want to learn actual worldly skills that have nothing to do with a science lab or text book?

If you want to travel to a different country you need a visa, you need the correct documents and the permission to actually travel from one place to another, is that being free in this world?

If you own a house that in itself is only brick and wood that comes from the earth and will return there eventually, not yours or anyone elses in reality, but you have to pay for it, and can you take that house with you when you die or when you go somewhere? If you own a car you must pay insurance even if you do not want to you have to. You have to pay tax in all kinds of ways as an adult, is that being free, being taxed to live?

You are caught on CCTV cameras daily without knowing most of the time and you have no say in that whatsoever, is that being free? This entire world that we have created over the last hundred years or so, is it a free one? It may seem more free than the ages of the past but may be take a closer look. There are many more points I have not pointed out.

Cloud

Depends on what you mean by freedom. I think the word has lost its meaning, it gets tossed around for everything. It used to mean freedom from something... not just something you are. That's why we had to fight for freedom, because there was something that was imposed upon us or not allowed that should've been. You're not simply "free", you're free to practice whatever religion you choose, free to not be a slave, and so on. And all of these things had to be put down in writing and enforced as such. The restrictions placed on us by law are really by us, at least in a democracy, so that we can all live together and enjoy these freedoms. Sure that means we can't do anything we want, and we have to do some things we don't want, but democracy is the best alternative we've come up with so far to protect the "freedoms" that we find to be most important to us.

I think "freedom" as a general term refers to civil rights. Equality. There are still some issues of inequality here in America and definitely in the greater world. If we're to use the term for anything, it'll usually be a civil rights issue.

And that's without even the Buddhist perspective that we're slaves to our craving.

poptart

I like Doug Stanhope's take on freedom. Warning: bad language.

Zero

Depends on which system you are considering and which perspective you are viewing it from - overall and very generalised, your actions impact everything else as does everything else impact your actions - this interdependence presents a paradox to the concept of freedom

kristin_chan

Your statement remind me of our local TV ads about freedom. There are 2 version for lady and for man in our local language.

This is the link for lady:



Translation:
Freedom is nonsense...
They said I can freely express myself...
As long as the skirt is still below my knee... (in moslem, ladies are not allowed to wear short skirts)
Life is short, while you are still young enjoy yourself...
As long as you reach home before 10... (in some eastern country, ladies are not suppose to go out 'till mid night)
They said I have the ultimate right to choose my own mate...
As long as we are from the same ethnic, educated and from good family background
They said nowadays we have unlimited option...
As long as we follow the available option
Think again

charirama

In a relative sense we are - we are not chained at the ankles and forced to do things, however, I see being part of the economic system as a form of "voluntary slavery."

I certainly agree with Cloud's statement about "the Buddhist perspective that we're slaves to our craving."

Cloud

@charirama, I was just adding that as an afterthought, even though it's true. What you say about voluntary slavery basically sums it up... it's voluntarily acceding to the laws of your country so that you and everyone else can be free in all important ways. You do what your country's laws and leaders tell you to, and your country protects your rights (basic freedoms). At least in a democracy that's how it works. Morals fall into this "voluntary slavery" category as well.

ThailandTom

Like I mentioned, if you look closely there are so many points I have left out, many of them being Buddhist related. To not see the Dhamma is to not be free, for that leads to delusion and attachment which of course will lead to suffering. A mind that sees the dhamma in every moment sees mind, and that is a free mind, it can take whatever the world throws at it and remains the mind that sees the mind.

But on the other side of things, as charirama pointed out living in such a society appoints you the position of a slave if you like it or not, or if you choose to accept it or not. You are forced to get an education so you can become a good worker and provide for the system, you are suggested to lead a healthy life so you can be a decent, ong lasting worker. When I was at university we were asked to deconstruct an NHS advert. Our lecturer questioned us about why the government would take such care about the downsides of drinking and smoking, do they care about you as people? Do they feel sorry for you? No, they want a healthy, decent able bodied work force to keep the wheels moving.

Cloud

I agree with you Tom we're not free in all ways, but the ways that we impose upon ourselves (we are the government) have always been for the common good. That's why we accept them. You're also right that someone may not accept them, and then what can they do? Well they can move for one thing, but they'll hardly find a place where they can do anything they want. There are always pros and cons to any society, there's no perfect system.

If you wanted to demonstrate that we're not free you've done that, and I agree. At least we're not entirely free... we have major freedoms or "rights", but otherwise have to follow the system's rules. But if you've got a better idea, some way for there to be a utopian society, let's hear it. We sure could use one right about now.

ThailandTom

Cloud said:

I agree with you Tom we're not free in all ways, but the ways that we impose upon ourselves (we are the government) have always been for the common good. That's why we accept them. You're also right that someone may not accept them, and then what can they do? Well they can move for one thing, but they'll hardly find a place where they can do anything they want. There are always pros and cons to any society, there's no perfect system.

If you wanted to demonstrate that we're not free you've done that, and I agree. At least we're not entirely free... we have major freedoms or "rights", but otherwise have to follow the system's rules. But if you've got a better idea, some way for there to be a utopian society, let's hear it. We sure could use one right about now.

To be honest there are a few ways around this. Wherever you can go you can be free if you understand that your home is your mind, that is your refuge, but that is not a simple house to build strong and tall, it takes a long time.

Moving somewhere else as you suggested can help, it can lower the cons. I now love in Thailand and not England and even though there are some things I cannot do here which I could back in the UK, it feels more free here very much so. To go even further one could go and live in the forest or jungle and depend solely on themselves, that would be freedom but it would also have a lot of cons that would come with it.

With regards to a society, I do not have an answer, but the western societies at the moment have less and less of an appeal to them with each month that passes, when I truly look into how they operate and why.