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Vipasana

I am talking about Bhanga nana or body dissolution, which is attained by scanning each part of the body. It is said you must scan from head to toe to notice sensations. What if we notice some itching round the torso while scanning the face, do we ignore the face and focus on the itching round the stomach? Must we always scan in a certain order? Some advice would be helpful.

Comments

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited September 2012
    I am not ducking the issue if say to you that the best advice I can give is to seek hands-on instruction in Vipassana.
    federicaThailandTom
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Yes. Vipassana is not a mechanical process. it needs careful insight. Best to find a teacher, in this case.
  • synchronicity, this is the weeks Buddhism Connect, a free emailing of the awakened heart sangha:
    Summary: In meditation, it is important to stabilize the mind (shamatha) before probing our experience (vipashyana). However, the questioning process of vipashyana is not about finding answers, it is about staying with the questions, and that is not going to be comfortable.

    A student asks:

    When I meditate, my mind does not feel very stable and I wonder if this is why I find it difficult to probe my experience with vipashyana meditation. Do you think that it may be wiser for me to work with stabilizing my mind using shamatha before doing a lot of vipashyana?

    Lama Shenpen replies:

    I think there are two things here. Yes you need to settle into some level of shamatha so that you are feeling relatively peaceful and able to start wondering about your experience in a sustained way. I think the other thing is that it sounds as if you are turning the questioning into an intellectual exercise. You may have started asking the questions as if you were supposed to come up with answers rather than simply staying with your own natural questions and having the confidence to just allow them to be there, unanswered and yet staring you in the face. It requires courage, confidence and humility to stay with those existential questions and realize that here is the beginning of the path. It is not a comfortable place to be until you realize that this place is in fact in itself the path…

    ********************

    Shamatha: Any meditation technique that leads to sustained peace and calm, unwavering concentration

    Vipashyana: Insight meditation; any meditation technique that links into Awakening.

  • At the moment, I can't attend a course, which is why I want to try something back home. Since 'breath watching' doesn't work for me, I thought maybe I could try body scan.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    music said:

    At the moment, I can't attend a course, which is why I want to try something back home. Since 'breath watching' doesn't work for me, I thought maybe I could try body scan.

    There are various approaches to body scanning, try googling it - some regard it as a preparatory exercise. One thing you could try is "feeling your weight" while sitting down, ie paying close attention to the sensation of pressure where your body is in contact. Also don't forget that you can investigate the sensations of breathing in different areas, eg abdomen and nostrils.
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    music said:

    Some advice would be helpful.

    If you'd like to learn Vipassana and can't get to a teacher, these lectures and handouts are probably the best you will get online.
    Introduction to Mindfulness Meditation, by Gil Fronsdal
    If you would rather read than listen along, here are the transcripts.
    Body awareness starts at week two. But start at week one just to be sure you're up with the play.
    But like everyone else has said, there's no substitute for a real live teacher. Go on a retreat! They are often free, if that's a problem.
  • My objective is to experience the dissolution of the body, and I heard this body scan was one of the methods. Are there others?
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited September 2012
    A blender?

    Seriously though, what do you understand by the word dissolution in this context? Because the actual meaning may be more subtle than than you imagine.
  • A blender?

    Seriously though, what do you understand by the word dissolution in this context?

    Feeling the body as a series of vibrations rather than as something solid. Vipasnaa students say this happens.
  • I think you need to reflect on wanting to learn Vipassana with an agenda of your own.
    What happens when Insight ( which is the actual aim of Vipassana ) arises may differ completely from your ideas of what might happen..Apart from anything else Insight undermines concepts.
  • I need an objective to stay motivated, that's all. No agenda, just something to verify Buddha's words that the body is impermanent.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited September 2012
    I think that saying " the body is impermanent " is not the same as saying " the body is a series of vibrations ".
    It may be...
    But the aim of Vipassana is to gain insight into what is..Which happens by awareness of what arises. Concepts...any concept at this stage, is likely to interfere with that process.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    music said:


    Feeling the body as a series of vibrations rather than as something solid. Vipasnaa students say this happens.

    You do realise this can take years of practice to accomplish - if at all?
    And it's just an essence of a state, it's not an actual description of something happening, physically....

  • federica said:

    music said:


    Feeling the body as a series of vibrations rather than as something solid. Vipasnaa students say this happens.

    You do realise this can take years of practice to accomplish - if at all?
    And it's just an essence of a state, it's not an actual description of something happening, physically....

    No, vipasana students report that they lost body consciousness. It no longer felt solid.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I repeat - you do realise this can take years of practice to accomplish?
    It's a state of being: Losing body consciousness means something different to different people. Do you know what it means to you?
    Of course not. You won't until you achieve it.
    And it can take a very long time.
    I get the impression that (a bit like Mr. mercury) you 'want it all, and you want it now'.....
    PrairieGhost
  • Could you quote your sources music ? The words you quote need a context.
    federica
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    music said:

    federica said:

    .....
    You do realise this can take years of practice to accomplish - if at all?
    And it's just an essence of a state, it's not an actual description of something happening, physically....

    No, vipasana students report that they lost body consciousness. It no longer felt solid.
    yes, but it's just a sensation, a way to describe something subtle and ephemeral; to outsiders, nothing changes, the body doesn't lose its solidity. It's just an inner sensation, a mental projection of a transformation, and simply a way of describing the experience....

  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited September 2012
    Citta, there are lots of sources which say that a 'peak experience' is enlightenment.

    My advice to music is that Zen is very good at dissolving the tendency to see things this way, and I would also recommend reading the Tao Te Ching.

    I would also advise studying what vipassana means in the context of the Buddha's teachings.

    For instance 'body scan' as opposed to Buddha's 'mindfulness of the body'.

    '4. “Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body [of breath]’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body [of breath].’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquilizing the bodily formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formation.’ As he abides thus diligent, ardent, and resolute, his memories and intentions based on the household life are abandoned; with their abandoning his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. That is how a bhikkhu develops mindfulness of the body.'

    http://www.palicanon.org/en/sutta-pitaka/transcribed-suttas/majjhima-nikaya/83-mn-119-kyagatsati-sutta-mindfulness-of-the-body.html
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Citta said:

    Could you quote your sources music ? The words you quote need a context.

    This is actually a primary requirement, and it would help to hear where you're obtaining this information from, yes, @music.....

  • Also:

    '21. “Again, bhikkhus, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. He sits pervading this body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his whole body unpervaded by the pure bright mind. Just as though a man were sitting covered from head down with a white cloth, so that there would be no part of his whole body not covered by the white cloth; so too, a bhikkhu sits pervading this body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his body unpervaded by the pure bright mind. As he abides thus diligent, ardent, and resolute, his memories and intentions based on the household life are abandoned; with their abandoning his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. That too is how a bhikkhu develops mindfulness of the body.'

    http://www.palicanon.org/en/sutta-pitaka/transcribed-suttas/majjhima-nikaya/83-mn-119-kyagatsati-sutta-mindfulness-of-the-body.html
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited September 2012
    (Even the Buddha's words should not be taken uncritically, they are just one man's take.)
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited September 2012
    I think we have a little conflation here between attempting to describe something beyond verbalisation, and a conflation between Vipassana and the Jhanic states.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited September 2012
    Hi Citta:
    a conflation between Vipassana and the Jhanic states
    I think vipassana is meant to be conflated with samatha, in the Buddha's teachings, and in my experience.

    But again, I hesitate to say even this, because it isn't quite like that... it's like it is. More like playing a violin than operating a computer. More art than science?

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/onetool.html

    Here's a good essay by Bhikku Thanissaro.
  • Me:
    More art than science?
    A craft :)
  • Citta said:

    Could you quote your sources music ? The words you quote need a context.

    It is everywhere. Just google the term 'bhanga nana' and see how many vipasna related forums you get. You will find students describing their experience at the 10 day retreat. I don't want to do a retreat because frankly I don't have the confidence that I can survive. So doing it back home could help.

  • jlljll Veteran
    edited September 2012

    hope this helps.
  • Vipassana Insight meditation has been very effective, for me, at reducing unnecessary suffering. As far as dissolving objects of consciousness goes; embracing them with vigilance often penetrates the delusion and permits dissolution.
  • Achaan Cha's book "A Still Forest Pool" was inspiring.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited September 2012
    I will withdraw from the debate with goodwill to all.
    In my experience unless someone has undergone at least one Vipassana retreat with instruction or a series of one day instructions, exchanging ideas about the underlying conceptual base is misleading at best..
    metta..
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I just get the impression people are looking for shortcuts, and frankly, there are times when shortcuts do not exist.
    Whatever happens, @music, you're going to have to put prolonged practice in, and be patient.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    music said:

    I need an objective to stay motivated, that's all. No agenda, just something to verify Buddha's words that the body is impermanent.

    A visit to the local cemetery? :D
    What if we notice some itching round the torso while scanning the face, do we ignore the face and focus on the itching round the stomach?
    Generally no. You just notice the itching and perhaps label it "itching, itching" and then return to the face. If you are able to fully return to the face, then the itching disappears and you get a small glimpse of dissolution or disappearing. You always scan in a certain predetermined order. Some teachers advise to start with the feet, some with the head. IMO, the particular order does not matter so much. What matters is that there is an order. You don't want to be sitting there in the middle of the meditation and saying to yourself "Ok, what should I do now?"
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    You don't want to be sitting there in the middle of the meditation and saying to yourself "Ok, what should I do now?"

    Unless you're doing Mahasi-style vipassana. In which case there's no order and no scanning.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited September 2012
    Citta, that's fair. I am basing my replies on vipassana as it is described in the Pali Canon, and as I have experienced it, and do not have any practical knowledge of modern vipassana techniques, which may well be excellent.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    Hi Citta:

    a conflation between Vipassana and the Jhanic states
    I think vipassana is meant to be conflated with samatha, in the Buddha's teachings, and in my experience.


    I think it's worth observing that vipassana ( insight ) and samatha ( tranquillity ) are qualities rather than practices, and that they are really 2 sides of the same coin.
    In simple terms, having developed a degree of tranquillity ( sometimes known as access concentration ), one can either develop jhana or one can develop insight. There seems to be a view that jhana isn't transformative in the way that insight is, though I'm not sure it's as simple as that...possibly another thread though. ;)
    PrairieGhost
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    federica said:

    Whatever happens, @music, you're going to have to put prolonged practice in, and be patient.

    Yes that's true.
    Also there are a range of possible approaches, and so I think it's partly about putting in the time and effort to explore them, seeing what works for us.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Citta said:

    But the aim of Vipassana is to gain insight into what is..Which happens by awareness of what arises. Concepts...any concept at this stage, is likely to interfere with that process.

    Yes, it's about feeling change rather than thinking about it.
  • I would add that there is no sect that knows the 'only' vipassana. All buddhism teaches shamata vipassana, not just the ones that label themselves as such.

    Nonetheless, now I understand the OP was talking about a certain sect.
  • The purpose of meditation, regardless of what you wish to call it is just this.
    “Bhikkhus, visible-forms are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

    “Sounds are impermanent… Smells are impermanent… Tastes are impermanent… Tactile-objects are impermanent… Mind-objects are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

    “Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple has revulsion towards visible-forms, has revulsion towards sounds, has revulsion towards smells, has revulsion towards tastes, has revulsion towards tactile-objects, has revulsion towards mind-objects. Having revulsion, he becomes dispassionate; Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there is the knowledge ‘It is liberated.’ He knows ‘Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived, what is to be done has been done, there is nothing more beyond this.”

    ~ Saṃyutta-Nikāya, Saḷāyatanavagga, Saḷāyatanasaṃyutta, Sutta 4
  • edited September 2012
    music said:

    I am talking about Bhanga nana or body dissolution, which is attained by scanning each part of the body. It is said you must scan from head to toe to notice sensations. What if we notice some itching round the torso while scanning the face, do we ignore the face and focus on the itching round the stomach? Must we always scan in a certain order? Some advice would be helpful.

    music said:

    I need an objective to stay motivated, that's all. No agenda, just something to verify Buddha's words that the body is impermanent.

    Hi Music,

    It is good to hear that you are eager in your practices, and I hope to perhaps provide my share about Body contemplation.
    Over here in South East Asia, many notable teachers teach such methods as a ways to help the student realizing the nature of this body and help reduce our clinging to it.

    Vipasana is qualities in which the person sees the nature of things as it is present and is happening. So in words, the mind scans for things as they are happening. When the itching or any kind of feeling (whether small shocks, twitching, spasm, tension or relaxation) is happening, one is to be mindful and aware of those as they are happening.

    Don't try to focus too much, you might end up making the feeling more intense.
    Use the same concentration as the scanning to scan at the particular feeling. Keep on observing it as it is happening, observe it as it fade away. Once it disappear then goes back to the scanning the body following the orders. That in itself is impermanence of the feelings.

    At this stage, I would recommend following the scanning order first before you are more attuned to the practice. I will also recommend for you to put aside your objectives or motivations as being a state of feeling or of seeing 'this' or 'that'. It is a kind of desire and it will hinders your progress but rather treat the practice as the goal in itself or as a tools to further understand yourself.

    May I ask you, what discourages you from your anapanasati practice?

    Hope this helps,

    Mindfulness and Wisdom be on your way.
    driedleafmusic
  • At the 10 day retreat, how long must we meditate - not the total hours per day but how many hours at a stretch? If the total hours is 10 hours per day, do we meditate 2 hours at a stretch max?
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    music said:

    At the 10 day retreat, how long must we meditate - not the total hours per day but how many hours at a stretch? If the total hours is 10 hours per day, do we meditate 2 hours at a stretch max?

    At the Goenka ones, one hour max, during the three daily group-sits. Other than that it's up to you how long you sit.

    There is one single session where they go for 1.5 hours, that's where they actually teach the vipassana technique on day four. But you are free to shift around and change the way you sit.
    Plus, if you aren't used to sitting on the floor, you can ask for a chair on you application form, and they'll put you at the back of the hall on a low chair.
    music
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