Theravada Sangha

jessie70

Are there any differences in terms of ritual in sitting with a Theravada group? I would like to sit with a Theravada sangha that I discovered near where I live.

I have sat with a Soto Zen group, and have become very used to their methods. I have been reading more and very interested in exploring Theravada sangha.

What can I say, I have always been a comparison shopper ;-)

I don't know what will be different, except from what I have read, they will probably not recite the 4 Bodhisattva vows..."Beings are numberless" etc...

Can someone who has sat with a Theravada sangha tell me the usual flow? Do they also do walking meditation? Do you arrive in silence, take off shoes? Are singing bowls and incense still used? If someone has sat in both types of groups, are there noticeable differences?

Anything else I should be aware of having come from sangha in the zen school?
Thank you.

Jason

It all depends on the group, really. The one I attend, for example (a Theravada group in the tradition of Ajahn Chah), people usually arrive and either chat for a bit in the kitchen area or sit quietly in the meditation room until the meditation session starts. (Shoes are always removed.) Sitting begins with the lighting of some incense and a short refuge chant (they do just the Pali):

Buddham saranam gacchami
I go to the Buddha for refuge.
Dhammam saranam gacchami
I go to the Dhamma for refuge.
Sangham saranam gacchami
I go to the Sangha for refuge.

Dutiyampi Buddham saranam gacchami
For a second time, I go to the Buddha for refuge.
Dutiyampi Dhammam saranam gacchami
For a second time, I go to the Dhamma for refuge.
Dutiyampi Sangham saranam gacchami
For a second time, I go to the Sangha for refuge.

Tatiyampi Buddham saranam gacchami
For a third time, I go to the Buddha for refuge.
Tatiyampi Dhammam saranam gacchami
For a third time, I go to the Dhamma for refuge.
Tatiyampi Sangham saranam gacchami
For a third time, I go to the Sangha for refuge.

Then everyone sits for about 40 mins, either cross-legged on the floor, on zafus, or chairs in the back of the room. Afterwards, there's a short break for everyone to mindfully stretch, use the rest room, or get some tea before the Dhamma talk begins. Following the Dhamma talk, everyone goes around, introduces themselves, and asks questions or offers comments based upon their experiences if they feel so inclined (everyone is free to pass, of course). The session ends with a longer blessing chant (just the English this time):

[Iminā puññakamena] upajjhāyā guṇuttarā
Through the goodness that arises from my practice,
Ācariyūpakārā ca mātāpitā ca ñātakā
May my spiritual teachers and guides of great virtue, My mother, my father, and my relatives,
Suriyo candimā rājā gunavantā narāpi ca
The Sun and the Moon, and all virtuous leaders of the world,
Brahma-mārā ca indā ca lokapālā ca devatā
May the highest gods and evil forces, Celestial beings, guardian spirits of the Earth, and the Lord of Death,
Yamo mittā manussā ca majjhattā verikāpi ca
May those who are friendly, indifferent, or hostile,
Sabbe sattā sukhī hontu puññāni pakatāni me
May all beings receive the blessings of my life.
Sukhañca tividhaṃ dentu khippaṃ pāpetha vomataṃ
May they soon attain the threefold bliss and realise the Deathless.
Iminā puññākammena iminā uddissena ca
Through the goodness that arises from my practice, and through this act of sharing,
Khippahaṃ sulabhe ceva taṇhūpādāna-chedanaṃ
May all desires and attachments quickly cease
Ye santāne hīnā dhammā yāva nibbānato mamaṃ
And all harmful states of mind. Until I realise Nibbāna,
Nassantu sabbadā yeva yattha jāto bhave bhave
In every kind of birth, may I have an upright mind,
Ujucittaṃ satipaññā sallekho viriyamhinā
With mindfulness and wisdom, austerity and vigour.
Mārā labhantu nokāsam kātuñca viriyesu me
May the forces of delusion not take hold nor weaken my resolve.
Buddhādhipavaro nātho dhammo nātho varuttamo
The Buddha is my excellent refuge, Unsurpassed is the protection of the Dhamma,
Nātho paccekabuddho ca saṅgho nāthottaro mamaṃ
The Solitary Buddha is my noble Lord, The Sangha is my supreme support.
Tesottamānubhāvena marokasaṃ labhantu mā
Through the supreme power of all these, May darkness and delusion be dispelled.

On other occasions, generally on the weekends, they do more chanting, sitting, and walking meditation, as well as have book studies, meditation classes, and things of that nature.

One thing to be aware of that might be different from Zen traditions is that, if it's a Thai Theravada group, try not to point your feet out in front of you and towards monks, statues of the Buddha, or other people. In Thai culture, it's considered rude (which likely stems from the mythic origins of the four Indian varna, born from the mouth, arms, thighs, and feet of Purusha, with the feet = lowly/dirty). This is also true in Cambodia and Laos. (Not sure about Burma or Sri Lanka, but it's a safe bet not to.) If it's a mostly Westerners in the group, however, it probably won't be much of an issue.

vinlyn

Good summary of the setting, Jason.

Yes, the pointing of the feet thing is quite a sensitive topic. The most active effort to control it I ever saw was in the royal temple in Bangkok where the Emerald Buddha is. I have seen tourists reprimanded, smacked with a stick, and even thrown out for that offense, as well as having their film (when people still used film) confiscated for taking photos. Again, that's an extreme situation, but I am glad you mentioned it.

Also, in Thai temples, remember that women NEVER, NEVER touch a Thai monk or hand him anything directly. If they want to hand him something, they should first hand it to a lay man, who will then hand it to the monk.

bumblebee

Hi Vinlyn
I find what you say very interesting.
Do you think the Buddha would approve
of such measures?
Greetings from London.

vinlyn

^^ Hi Bumblebee! I have no evidence that he would. Personally I see it as being more cultural than religious. Even among common people, one does not sit in a way (for example with one leg crossing another) where your foot would point to another person on the bottom of your shoe would point to another person.

A Thai friend of mine got very upset one day because I put a few baht bills in my shoe in case of emergency...the money has the King's picture on it!

Citta

Theravadin monks in the west are much more relaxed about the social mores and are likely to take things from women and will not be bothered about where you put your feet..so it depends Jessie on where your intend attending...

jessie70

Thank you everyone- this is very helpful!

federica

Citta said:

Theravadin monks in the west are much more relaxed about the social mores and are likely to take things from women and will not be bothered about where you put your feet..so it depends Jessie on where your intend attending...

This is quite true. I used to attend Amaravati monastery, near hemel, in the UK. One Vesak, the place was packed, and in fact in a big group of people chatting, while finding his way through the crowd, Ajahn Dhammanando put his hand on the back of a lady, to gently go through... so I think although there are obvious regulations for obvious situations, I think in reality, you have to adapt to circumstance. HH the DL frequently connects with lady followers, even though apparently, contact with women is frowned upon....

DairyLama

jessie70 said:

Can someone who has sat with a Theravada sangha tell me the usual flow? Do they also do walking meditation? Do you arrive in silence, take off shoes? Are singing bowls and incense still used? If someone has sat in both types of groups, are there noticeable differences?

I sometimes attend a Thai Forest group, it seems quite informal. There is some introductory chat, then some chanting, then 1/2 hour meditation, then discussion and / or a recorded talk by a monk.
Anyway, just be mindful of what others are doing and I'm sure you'll be fine.

Citta

I think what has happened is that Thai people living in the UK still maintain the social etiquette that they learned from their parents,, or back in Thailand depending on the generation. And that is fair enough.
But monks in the west do not expect it of westerners.
I know several western monks who actively discourage being addressed by honorifics such as " Bhante" or " Ajahn" and who insist in being called simply by their name...
Sometimes their pre-ordination name.
The very famous Theravadin monk Thanissaro Bhikkhu for example is known to everyone as " Geoff"...or if someone is being more formal .. Ajahn Geoff..
I think you have to play it by ear.
If you are with a group who are being formal and being careful where they point their feet etc then it is only polite not to needlessly offend them.