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Hooligans and Heroes

edited December 2007 in Buddhism Today
I have been meaning to ask this for some time now. Back several weeks ago on one of the last days of school, the class jock and bully was shall I say....dethroned? I'll just call this kid Nick and the kid that solved this bully problem is named Pete.

Nick the soccer jock, and brainless bully has a reputation for picking on very nerdy and quiet kids. Luckily, I have not had much dealings with this fellow and have avoided such teasing. Pete however was not so fortunate.

It would appear that after some two years of this bullying, the very shy and quiet Pete became quite tired of this. After school had ended Nick once again did his daily torment of Pete. Before he could get started, Pete nearly knocked out Nick with a punch. Pete gave him a shiner and a bloody face causing him to cry.

I must admit that I took grim satisfaction in seeing the bully suffer for once. My dad had done the same thing to a childhood bully.

Pete became an instant hero among most class members. (including me)

So my question of course....Was such action justified? What might you have done?

If I ever met the people that beat me up last year, I might want to do the same!

Violence is an answer....just not always the best one

Comments

  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2006
    I have been meaning to ask this for some time now. Back several weeks ago on one of the last days of school, the class jock and bully was shall I say....dethroned? I'll just call this kid Nick and the kid that solved this bully problem is named Pete.

    Nick the soccer jock, and brainless bully has a reputation for picking on very nerdy and quiet kids. Luckily, I have not had much dealings with this fellow and have avoided such teasing. Pete however was not so fortunate.

    It would appear that after some two years of this bullying, the very shy and quiet Pete became quite tired of this. After school had ended Nick once again did his daily torment of Pete. Before he could get started, Pete nearly knocked out Nick with a punch. Pete gave him a shiner and a bloody face causing him to cry.

    I must admit that I took grim satisfaction in seeing the bully suffer for once. My dad had done the same thing to a childhood bully.

    Pete became an instant hero among most class members. (including me)

    So my question of course....Was such action justified? What might you have done?

    If I ever met the people that beat me up last year, I might want to do the same!

    Violence is an answer....just not always the best one

    KoB,

    What question could be more important at the moment?

    The situation that you describe is one which repeats up and down schools all over our respective countries. And not just the schools: work-places and the international arena are full of examples of bullying behaviour. Kindness and fair dealing are not the order of the day.

    The long-term effects of such behaviour are becoming apparent: I have a dear and close friend who suffers from what is now called "complex PTSD" as a result of bullying at work. As a result, and because I have seen my own children bullied at school, I have thought long and hard about the problem.

    I believe that our schools should be challenged to implement anti-bullying policies which include clear sanctions, confidential advice, peer-group support and, above all, early intervention. In the case you quote, the behaviour had been going on far too long for any type of 'soft' intervention. The problem is that 'Pete' may be a peer-group hero but he has also executed a criminal act, however provoked, and this must have effects that he may not like. Both of them are now in the same position of having terrorised the other - and of having been terrorised by them. This now needs very skilled facilitation.

    When violence becomes the answer, the question has been left to fester for too long. It is early action that is needed. Parents and school boards should be concentrating on this growing problem and local communities should be mobilised to press schools and colleges into less hands-off policies.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited July 2006
    I disagree, Simon. I think the bloke got what was coming to him. I don't think it's necessarily bad karma to stand up for yourself and poke somebody in the nose. If he had shot him, then obviously that's not good, but just to poke a bully in the nose? I say go for it!

    I remember once in junior high (back when they had junior highs) I was kind of a nerd too. Once when I was walking home after school some kid began accosting me completely out of the blue. Never saw him before, had no idea who he was, but somehow he had decided I was worthy of his ministrations. I never said a word to him, just kept on walking until he gave up. This went on for a few days. Then one day he showed up with a colleague, who seemed a bit uncomfortable with his pal's behavior but didn't say anything. The bully, emboldened by an audience, started getting a little too close to me, so finally I stopped, set down my band instrument (a baritone horn), and gave him a shove, the power of which even surprised me. It threw him into a white picket fence, which nearly broke. He looked at me like he had just seen a ghost and took off with his moron friend, never to be seen again.

    So the point is sometimes standing up for yourself is the only way to deal with a bully. I don't think all the counseling in the world would have helped my situation or Pete's the slightest little bit. Most likely it would have only added fuel to the fire and made things quite dangerous for Pete (or me). Sometimes just being natural and spontaneous is the best answer. Come to think of it, I can't think when it wouldn't be!

    Palzang
  • edited July 2006
    People can only take so much. I honestly would have taken much less from this clown. Perhaps this was the best thing for a bully. A wake up call and undoubtedly better than someone bringing in a gun to show him up.

    My dad underwent similar torment in junior high. After school was out, his school bully spat on him while mowing grass. So, my dad climbed over the fence and solved this problem once and for all. He never got picked on again by him.

    Look, I am much a pacifist myself and I paid for that once. But I still think non-violence is a favorable choice. However you have to let kids solve their own problems. Adults and interventions only go so far. You have to stand up for yourself sometimes.
  • edited July 2006
    Letting kids solve their own problems when they haven't been given the tools to do it is no better than always stepping in and solving the problems for them.

    Adding violence and negativity to an already negative and violent situation doesn't solve it or lessen the violence. It might take the target off you and turn it to someone else, or it might make you a bigger target.

    Of course we can defend ourselves, but it's not really our job to go around meting out punishment to those who have hurt us, perhaps it stops us from being attacked, and sometimes it might give the "offender" something to think about, but it most cases it probably only aggravates the situation, perhaps not for us, but maybe for the next target.

    The fact that someone else has hurt us and others doesn't make our revenge or hurting them just.

    Sorry, can't gather my thoughts enough to put down anything coherent.

    I agree with what Simon said, especially the part about early intervention. If you wait for situations to develop before you act, then it will already be much more difficult, and maybe even too late for some.

    Maybe the adults have to be given the tools to solve conflicts before they can teach the children.
  • edited July 2006
    When I say kids, these are 17 year olds. Pete did what most people always wanted to do but never had the guts. But please someone give me a better solution to this problem. Administrators had tried to intervene in their squabble several times before with no success. And on the last day of school, being in a school you hate going to because of bullies like Nick, why not give him a black eye?

    I relate to Pete in a way. I am geeky too. I was picked on in 6-8th grade a bit too. My most effective method was laughing at people's insults of me. They wouldn't know what to do then and it eventually stopped. Unfortunately, it doesn't work for others.

    If Pete would have never stopped him, maybe Nick would have kept picking on other people through school and through life until he messed with someone with a knife or a gun.

    I believe in Karma....in a sense that all my actions have consequences and therefore I am totally responsible for what I say and do. The bully chose a certain course of action, and now he has suffered the consequences.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Well, I'm going to stick to my guns (figuratively) on this one. I don't think giving a bully a taste of his/her own medicine is bad at all. In the first place, I have yet to meet a bully who was willing or able to back up his threats. Bullies are cowards at heart who prey on those they see as weaker and more cowardly than themselves. When they learn that their victim is willing to stand up for him/herself, that's the end of it. You'll never see them again.

    Let me give you an illustrative example, if I may be so bold. When I lived in Maryland, I used to ride my bike through a neighborhood where there was a large, mean looking Doberman who never missed the opportunity to bark his head off at me when I drove by. He was in the backyard behind a fence, so I never gave him much mind. One day, however, he jumped the fence and came after me. Well, I wasn't going to play his game, so I turned my bike right at him and went after him. When he saw what I was up to, the big bad Doberman turned tail, jumped back over the fence, and got as far away from me as he could. After that I never heard a whimper from him when I drove by. He'd just look at me with his tail between his legs.

    People aren't really much different than dogs. It's called "training."

    Palzang
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Oh, man! This is such a fantastic thread!!

    I was reading Simon's post and nodding my head, agreeing with every word of that profound and useful wisdom. Then I read Palzang's and agreed with his, too! Then I read Aquula's and had to agree with that! What a great thread you started, good Sir Knight. I hope it goes on and on.

    I remember reading "How Green was My Valley" when I was a child and the part about Dai Bando teaching Hugh how to box in order to deal with his abusive teacher at school had me cheering on the whole process. I wanted Hugh to beat the shit out of the sadistic schoolmaster. I really did. My body got all tense and my hand balled into a fist and even I was ready for bloody brawl.

    So after some thought I've come to this conclusion. Violence breeds violence. There's no two ways about it and we can never change that fact. It's the nature of violence to breed upon itself and it will never, ever change. So, you may think that the problem is solved when the bully gets knocked down but it's not. It got worse the moment the fist made contact with the face. And as Simon pointed out, assault is a crime. One that could haunt you for the rest of your life. But just on the level of usefulness alone, reacting to violence with violence is completely unskillful, which is why the Buddha advised against it. It doesn't work. It never has and it never will. If you believe it does work than you must believe war works as well because it's the same thing on a different level.

    Pete needed to know how to respond to the bully the first time it ever happened. Period. The fact that he was not taught the skills to deal with it properly at the age of seventeen speaks volumes about the school and the adults who knew what was going on. There are ALWAYS, ALWAYS alternatives to violence and especially to the situation you've described, Knight. One such alternative would have been a powerful verbal response that would outline for the bully exactly how much his behavior was going to be tolerated. With the right information, words, volume and body language, believe me, that coward would have been held back and given no ammunition to file an assault charge. We're not savages and we're not dogs.
  • edited July 2006
    I'd like to put my two cents in for what it is worth.

    I am a mother of 2 sons. They are 20 and 27. I raised my sons to not fight. I told them that there was NEVER a good enough reason to get into a fight and if they used their heads they could talk their way out of any fight. I was wrong. I still believe in nonviolence but sometimes you have to defend yourself.

    My youngest son when he was in the 6th grade had problems with an 8th grader. The 8th grader out weighted my son by 50 lbs. This young man spent a week following my son around until he could get him where there were no teachers and no other students around and then tried to beat him up. He jumped my son from behind. If my son had not defended himself I can't imagine what would have happened to him with no one around to help him. Sometimes you do not have a choice, you have to stand and fight.

    From that time on I have not told my sons not to fight. I have told them to try and talk their way out of a fight. But if the other person swings 1st and they can not walk away. Then they have the right to defend themselves.

    Since my youngest son went through what he did in the 6th grade he now fights for the underdogs. The guys who are not big enough to defend themselves from the bullies. He steps in and will try to talk them out of it and if that does not work and he is hit 1st he will hit back. He feels that someone has to stand up for the little guy. He was once that little guy and there was no one to stand up for him.

    How do I feel about this. On one hand I am proud of my son because he does stand up for the little guy. But on the other hand I strongly believe in nonviolence. So as I said before. There is a time to defend yourself. What we have to try and teach our children and teens is that violence is wrong but if you are pushed in a corner and don't have a choice then you have the right to defend yourself.

    inthedhrama,
    Deb
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Yes, you're right, Brigid. Dogs are much better than humans. They don't go around killing their own kind for sport.

    I really don't think poking someone in the nose in self-defence can be called "violence", imho. It's like with the wrathful protectors in Vajrayana Buddhism. They're not angry, but wrathful. Anger is a negative emotion; wrath, if used properly, can be positive. It teaches the recipient that what he/she is doing is wrong. So try looking at it that way.

    Palzang
  • edited July 2006
    Nick never filed an assault charge, in fact I believe he was expelled. Don't know what became of Pete however. The funniest thing about the whole ordeal was that the big bad bully cried when he got hit by Pete. Cried like a little girl and went running to a teacher.

    I know that violence is never the end-all solution to many problems, but neither is letting people step all over you and ruin your life causing nothing but misery.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Nick never filed an assault charge, in fact I believe he was expelled. Don't know what became of Pete however. The funniest thing about the whole ordeal was that the big bad bully cried when he got hit by Pete. Cried like a little girl and went running to a teacher.

    I know that violence is never the end-all solution to many problems, but neither is letting people step all over you and ruin your life causing nothing but misery.

    "Cried like a girl"? What a give-away! And it's funny?!?

    Indeed, one can read it as karma that a young man is reduced to tears, bleeds and has his education terminated - and all because the school did not exercise its duty of care towards both young people.

    Each is entitled to read the Pairs in the Dhammapada in their own way and find their own wriggle room. I am not, here, discussing the 'theology' of retaliation - we each have our own take on this. What I am arguing is that bullying appears to have become endemic in both school and workplace. And it is avoidable.

    The strongest weapon against the bully is peer-group empowerment. Having seen it work with both youngsters and adults, in schools and even in highly structured organisations like the police force, I know it works.

    It is how women have managed to begin escaping from the institutionalised bullying by men!
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2006
    I took this confrontation between two peers and my discomfort to my reflection session this morning.

    KoB, you say that "Pete" became a hero to his classmates. Interesting. Where were they when he (and, I presume, they) were being bullied? What is missing in the whole story are all the other people around: parents, teachers, peers. In fact, what is missing is solidarity, which, for me, is at the heart of the Sangha in which I take refuge.
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited July 2006
    I couldn't agree with you more, Simon. And where, exactly, was everybody else?

    I used to go to a bar in the town where I went to university. It was mostly a student hang out hippie sort of place but every once in a while we'd get some tough guy looking for trouble. The toughest guy around, however, was behind the bar and his name was Bill. One night a rough, angry looking guy came in, pushed his way up to the bar and ordered a beer. Bill served him but kept an eye on him. In a few minutes it became obvious that this guy was looking for a fight. He began insulting some of the girls and being generally belligerent to the guys. But Bill, being the consummate professional that he was, knew that if he tried to take the guy out of the bar by the scruff of the neck there was going to be trouble. So instead he turned all the lights on, turned the music off and announced to the whole bar that we should all stand up and stare at this man standing at the bar. We did and after a couple of self conscious swigs of his beer the tough guy put his jacket on and walked out of the bar muttering to himself. Bill turned the music back on, turned the lights back down and the night resumed within about 5 to 7 minutes with no punches pulled, no broken teeth and no blood spilled.

    There are times when self defense is unavoidable, I'll agree to that. But violence can't be justified until all other alternatives have been exhausted and bullying in schools happens because people don't do anything about it, whether that's the victim, the witnesses or the school and parental authorities. Simon's right. If everyone stood in unwavering unity against bullying and made it the social suicide it should be the environment would change and the use of secrecy by intimidation or shame would no longer be a viable tool for the bully to begin with. We're stuck in a thinking rut about this issue and it's time to start thinking outside the box.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Dr Jakobovitz, Chief Rabbi of Great Britain, was asked the old question: "Where was God in Auschwitz?"

    His answer has echoed through me all my life: "Where were humans?"
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited July 2006
    I really am not sure where I stand on this other than to say that I deplore violence, and feel strongly that everyone should strive at all costs to defuse potentially explosive situations whenever possible...

    I watched a programme here on UKTV, about the Normandy landings in WWII, and the recollections of a British soldier, an American soldier, landing quasi-simultaneously just half a mile from one another...and a German soldier, who, in all probability had been firing on them, trying to kill them,and who knew for sure, that he had certainly been responsible for the death of some of their Brothers in Arms.... And they were standing there, just talking together, reminiscing, on exactly the same spot, all these years later.... three elderly men, whom had all been fighting for their respective countries, fighting because they had been put there to do so, fighting because they were following orders...just chatting.....
    it sent shivers down my spine....the stupidity of it all, the ridiculous irony of the whole bloody thing....totally, totally senseless.....

    When I was a young girl, I was cornered by a bully and his cronies, but there were other, "Impartial" neutral bystanders, watching (probably glad it was not they who were being victimised....) and this bully, using some pretty graphic colourful language, began to belittle me....I have no idea to this day what on earth prompted me to do so, but I just asked if it made him feel powerful, and clever, picking on others, who could not fight back....? Because, actually, it wasn't clever, and it was a shame he felt he needed to do it in front of others...did it make him feel big? Was he proud of himself? did he want to boast about it? "Be my guest", I said..."I don't give a damn....look at me....hardly a worthy opponent or trophy, am I?"

    Why or how I didn't get flattened, I'll never know. But it worked. I knew, at that precise moment, looking into his eyes, that he felt like a worm.... Without another word, he turned, and walked away, his entourage following him, probably as perplexed as I was....
    One or two people - mainly boys - patted me on the back, and said 'well done'.... I know I became a bit of a talking point for a while afterwards...I don't remember actually ever seeing the bully again, even though he went to my school....

    I'm not saying it would work every time, but I'll tell you what - I'm damn glad it worked for me.....
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Palzang wrote:


    I remember once in junior high (back when they had junior highs) I was kind of a nerd too.
    Palzang

    Noooooooo. Really?

    Whoddathunk.

    -bf
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2006
    I don't know where I stand on this issue either.

    But, isn't there a teaching of the Buddha that says something that amounts to - whether they beat your or break your bones or tear the flesh from your body - that you should respond in kind?

    Anyone help me with this?

    -bf
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited July 2006
    That you should respond in kind?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited July 2006
    When your body is filthy with spit . . . you cannot clean it with that same spit . . . So when you abuse those who abuse and revile you, or kill or beat up those murderers who beat you . . . it is like adding fuel to fire; enmity on both sides never ceases. . . . hatred that burns on the fuel of justifications must be quenched with the water of compassion, not fed with the firewood of reasons and causes. Compassion is fundamentally right, free of malice, and is the source for all good actions. Good, founded on compassion, destroys evil and puts out the fire of enmity.16

    From this link:

    http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/interreligious/cd39-03.html
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Yes, I not only believe that but I've seen and experienced the truth of that.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Nope... that wasn't what I was looking for...

    Still searching...

    -bf
  • edited July 2006
    I like the story about the Buddhist walking down the street when a robber comes up to rob him.
    The robber tells the Buddhist to give him all his money and when the Buddhist hands over his wallet he tells the robber that he is sorry there isn't more. The robber asks the Buddhist why would you say that and the Buddhist says because if you feel so desperate that you feel like you have to rob me then you must need it more than I do.

    What an excellent Buddhist thing to think and say............
    I could never be so cool as to tell someone that if they were robbing me. I would probably just freak out.

    I also like.....

    To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it.

    Confucius
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited July 2006
    buddhafoot,

    Perhaps you are be referring to MN 21:
    "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."


    It's also known as the Simile of the Saw.

    Best wishes,

    Jason
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited July 2006
    Yes, that's the one I was thinking of but I don't know if it was the one BF was thinking of.
  • edited July 2006
    What is missing in the whole story are all the other people around: parents, teachers, peers. In fact, what is missing is solidarity, which, for me, is at the heart of the Sangha in which I take refuge.

    Thats the sad part IMO. I would venture to say that most of American society would not only give tacit approval to the outcome... but outright approval. They want to the boy to handle it, and handle it this way because they figure it's the only way two boys can handle it. It's wrong and we should be teaching them differently.

    I'm a girl, obviously, and was accosted by a physical bully in my day (never mind the verbal abuse kids can throw at eachother). In my real life experience, thankfully the solidarity was there. When she grabbed me by my collar at the bus stop (she threatened many times but this was the only time she laid a hand on me)... there were a number of kids who told her to knock it off, adults also got involved. Not two years later we were able to relate in a much different way. It IS possible to deal with it differently.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2006
    indigo32 wrote:
    Thats the sad part IMO. I would venture to say that most of American society would not only give tacit approval to the outcome... but outright approval. They want to the boy to handle it, and handle it this way because they figure it's the only way two boys can handle it. It's wrong and we should be teaching them differently.

    I'm a girl, obviously, and was accosted by a physical bully in my day (never mind the verbal abuse kids can throw at eachother). In my real life experience, thankfully the solidarity was there. When she grabbed me by my collar at the bus stop (she threatened many times but this was the only time she laid a hand on me)... there were a number of kids who told her to knock it off, adults also got involved. Not two years later we were able to relate in a much different way. It IS possible to deal with it differently.


    Thank you for that, Indigo. Both of you were saved. That is exactly what society is for but I agree that the USian myth of self-sufficiency and the frontiersman militates against such community involvement.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2006
    Eh?
  • edited November 2006
    I don't think he really DESERVED it, but its not like he didn't see it coming.
  • edited November 2006
    in all honestly, the bully brought it about. In order to win a war you must take away his resources, whether this is indeed bashing him, or making teachers intervene..

    but physical acts seems more effective, kids will bother you even if told not to by parents or teachers. Because they think you are responsible for this telling off and build yet more resentment. They also believe you can't fight ur battles and see u as even weaker, teachers and parents and friends can't protect u 24/7 so its not a great solution.

    In winning these personal battles the mind must be conquered. I myself go through these.. random events on a weekly and sometime daily basis.. I am insulted randomly by ppl i have neva seen or spoken to.. I was in a conflict with 1 kid who saw me as a 'gay buddha nerd' to describe it.. he saw me meditating at a bus stop and found imediate offense in this.. trying to provoke me while i just answered his questions in complete calm. I half expected him to attack me, but im well aware he can't hurt me and I can inflict great pain on him. Its terribly pathetic, sticking middle fingers up at me and so forth, it just doesn't work... thats childs play and shows desperation..

    In attacking your bully this itself is a perfect example of karma and should not be seen as criminal or unjust or anything. It should not be an embarassing or shameful act. The bully planted the seeds, and they are entirely what was gunna happen sooner of later. I myself have lashed out at 1 kid.. by getting him in a head lock.. and tbh i could pretty easily beat the majority of them senseless..

    U keep planting seeds like that and of course you gunna get ur head kicked in by someone.. hence i made an earlier post saying eventually someone would make me kick their head in.. and its v v v possible it will happen 1 day

    The problem is guys with a lot of anger and testosterone looking to prove superiority over ppl they label as weak.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited November 2006
    Make me an instrument of Peace;
    where there is hatred, let me sow love;
    where there is injury, pardon;
    where there is doubt, faith;
    where there is despair, hope;
    where there is darkness, light;
    and where there is sadness, joy.
    I fervently desire that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
    to be understood, as to understand;
    to be loved, as to love;
    for it is in giving that we receive,
    it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
    and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.


    This is purportedly a prayer by St Francis of Assisi, although no written records of it have been found dating beyond 1912.

    Whatever its provenance, God or no God, it is inspirational and should be on everyone's lips.
  • edited November 2006
    i think a psalm was based on that prayer, some of the lines especially first 2 lines are of it.

    u can't preach love to those with fear in their eyes..i doubt thas anyone in here. but they will see what u are saying as boasting on ur mental superiority and take more offense.. If u preach love they could well start pushing you or getting in ur face..

    u can't say anything at all which shows anything.. u can't talk to them normally and u can't sound like in anyway ur being superior or inferior.. just be short and non-offensive in nature.. and even then.. conflict will continue til solved

    if at war with ur enviroment blend in, if you can't then leave.
  • edited December 2007
    I have been bullied my fair share of times (im 14 and I am quiet) I realy wish people dident have to make fun of other people to feel better about them.
  • edited December 2007
    Chuckness wrote: »
    I have been bullied my fair share of times (im 14 and I am quiet) I realy wish people dident have to make fun of other people to feel better about them.

    Unfortunately, the old conventional wisdom of "just ignore them and they'll go away" is a dreadful untruth.

    The way I see it, there are 3 ways to overcoming bullying.

    1) Use wit and humor to counteract the bullying. Make them feel stupid and point out any possible folly in their actions or words. You might be lucky enough to gain their respect or simply make them feel uninterested in bothering you.

    2) Befriend a big, tough guy at your school. Someone who would easily intimidate the bully. Who cares if it's cowardly? I wouldn't even call it that at all. It's cowardly to belittle someone without just cause.

    3) Simply beat the hell out of the bully. If he has confederates, just set out one of them as an example. They might think you're weird after that, but it's certainly better to be feared than tormented.

    I can already hear the objections rolling my way. I was fortunate enough in my day to go with Option 1 on my list. I laughed at any potential criticism that could ever evolve into bullying. I even made fun of myself along with them. This really bugged them.

    Then again, the kids who made fun of me weren't really bullies in the traditional sense. They were just my old friends who didn't like me anymore. I never had to consider force.

    Anyway, I won't patronize you and tell you all about the advantages of a passive approach here. Because when it comes to the real bad ass bullies of the world, you have to be just as bad ass as them. Maybe even more so if you want to really knock them down off their pedestals.

    One thing I will caution you against though is "telling" on them. Unless they are threatening you with acts of violence, do not report the bullying to the administration. You will look cowardly in the eyes of the bully and your suffering will only increase ten fold.

    So if I were you, I'd start pumping some iron and honing my "smart ass" skills. Both of these courses of action will be invaluable if you are truly to conquer your oppressors.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited December 2007
    One thing I will caution you against though is "telling" on them. Unless they are threatening you with acts of violence, do not report the bullying to the administration. You will look cowardly in the eyes of the bully and your suffering will only increase ten fold.

    I'm not disputing what you say in this specific regard, but I find this enormously disturbing....

    Here in the UK, bullying is a national and recognised issue, and tolerance of bullies - both amongst adults and fellow pupils - is zero.
    Children here are actively encouraged to police themselves and expose bullies for what they are, and adults in Education are quick to act and help those affected. It is a problem, it is stll prevalent, but it is very much an open topic, and one that is becoming more prominent, and exposed.... we're definitely working on it.
    That said, I do think that the entire issue of what we, as nations and society, have done to rob the young of their dignity, fun and independence is one that should make us hang our heads in utter shame....
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited December 2007
    Schools, like the police, reflect the society they serve - and we live in a bullying culture. In the workplace as in foreign fields, might is deemed to be right. Why are we surprised that schools are training our young to take over from bullying managers/teachers/police/parking wardens?

    Having disagreed with KoB a few times in the past, I have to disagree again: it is essential that the bullied report the offences and that the schools take them seriously. It is precisely the same as with any other criminal activity. The more you tolerate it, the more 'acceptable' it becomes. Schools must be forced to act to protect their students - it is their duty over and above any other, even above getting their ankle-biters through exams.

    Students should ORGANISE! As we say in AA: "Together we CAN".

    Nil carborundum illegitimi.

    As Fede says, we are beginning to take bullying seriously over here. The unions are becoming very active and the courts are recognising it as a real problem. I would also add that bullying, over a protracted period, is now recognised as being among the caused of complex PTSD, an intractable and hard-to-treat mental injury that can last for the rest of a person's life.

    REFUSE TO BE BULLIED. DEMAND YOUR RIGHT TO BE SAFE, be it at work at school or in the home.
  • edited December 2007
    Schools, like the police, reflect the society they serve - and we live in a bullying culture. In the workplace as in foreign fields, might is deemed to be right. Why are we surprised that schools are training our young to take over from bullying managers/teachers/police/parking wardens?

    Having disagreed with KoB a few times in the past, I have to disagree again: it is essential that the bullied report the offences and that the schools take them seriously. It is precisely the same as with any other criminal activity. The more you tolerate it, the more 'acceptable' it becomes. Schools must be forced to act to protect their students - it is their duty over and above any other, even above getting their ankle-biters through exams.

    Students should ORGANISE! As we say in AA: "Together we CAN".

    Nil carborundum illegitimi.

    As Fede says, we are beginning to take bullying seriously over here. The unions are becoming very active and the courts are recognising it as a real problem. I would also add that bullying, over a protracted period, is now recognised as being among the caused of complex PTSD, an intractable and hard-to-treat mental injury that can last for the rest of a person's life.

    REFUSE TO BE BULLIED. DEMAND YOUR RIGHT TO BE SAFE, be it at work at school or in the home.

    I would be inclined to agree with you but only if administrations would be willing and capable of deterring bullies. Right now, they simply aren't.

    If I was in charge of a school and was presented with a case of tangible, provable bullying, the guilty party would be suspended on the first offense. A second offense would result in expulsion.

    But this is only an ideal. Most of today's bullies are not your stereotypical, dumb, lugs who shake kids upside down for their lunch money. The bully of today uses words and psychology to torment his victims. (I say "his", but there are plenty of girl bullies too)

    Many modern bullies are the well respected elites of their classes (school classes that is). They perpetuate a rigid hierarchal aristocracy of like minded individuals on the top and those who do not fit in with them are casted out at the point of humiliation and verbal torment. This is much harder to combat than the brutes on the playground. At least the latter can be beaten at their own game.

    I am all in favor of organizing against bullying. Such an organization would be a sophisticated version of my Option 2 "big brother" (not in the Orwellian sense of course)

    But while these unions may be well meaning, the subtle, psychological bullying will continue unabated. And I am unsure if any amount of education or unionizing can stop that.

    So until educators can seriously crack down on the tangible kinds of bullying, I say keep eating your protein bars and sharpening your debating skills. If you can't or won't beat them with force, strike them down with the war hammer of philosophy and the mind.
  • edited December 2007
    federica wrote: »
    That said, I do think that the entire issue of what we, as nations and society, have done to rob the young of their dignity, fun and independence is one that should make us hang our heads in utter shame....

    I'm not disagreeing with you per se, but what specifically do you mean when you say we have "robbed the young of their dignity, fun, and independence"? That seems to be a rather broad statement.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited December 2007
    KoB, being an old fogey from a previous generation, I look at the advancement of technology and the progress of industry, but conversely, I see a fall into anarchy and a break-down of social skills, intergration and community....
    I'm also speaking from a UK perspective. I can only call it the way it is here....

    We have the highest rate of teenage pregnancies and young unmarried mothers in Europe.
    Knife and gun crimes, amongst the young, is on the increase...If you go into a shop that specialises in selling kitchen and household goods, their kitchen knives are under lock and key.... and due to stringent gun laws, the only way for a young person to obtain a gun is illegally....
    We seem to be struggling in the war against illegal drugs (another thread for this one, no further comment necessary) and there are countless stories of violence and vandalism caused by young people, fuelled by alcohol....

    And to bring the USA back into the fray, these crimes are commited, in the main, by young men... all these school and college shootings in the USA were done by young boys.... and the knifings and shootings here in the UK are also perpetrated by young men. Unfortunately, it seems young Black men are the chief activists, though I don't say this to play the racial card. I'm thinking more a clash of cultures.....

    What I want to know is, as the older generation - the generation supposedly responsible for the upbringing, education and protection of these young people - what the hell have we done, as a society, to transform these young people into the people we now fear?

    What the hell has gone wrong.....?!?

    (Answers in no more thn 50 words on a postcard please.... the first card out of the sack receives this wonderul pink frock.....!)
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited December 2007
    Things are also changing here in North America. There are now a number of national organizations in both countries that victims of any type of bullying can go to for help. Remaining silent for fear of reprisal is exactly what the bully wants you to do. That's how the Mafia operates, too. Remaining silent not only robs victims of possible relief from the situation but robs them of their power and dignity as well.
    I would also add that bullying, over a protracted period, is now recognised as being among the caused of complex PTSD, an intractable and hard-to-treat mental injury that can last for the rest of a person's life.
    I can attest to this. I was bullied for four years in the workplace and although I haven't worked there in over 6 years I still struggle with it. I didn't even realize how bad it had been until a few years later when it all started to bubble up to the surface. So I decided to research the subject and found out how prevalent bullying in the workplace actually is and what kind of long term damage it can do. One of my biggest regrets is that I remained silent for those four years.

    I have no more tolerance for bullying. In any form. Anywhere. Period.
  • edited December 2007
    Brigid wrote: »
    Things are also changing here in North America. There are now a number of national organizations in both countries that victims of any type of bullying can go to for help. Remaining silent for fear of reprisal is exactly what the bully wants you to do. That's how the Mafia operates, too. Remaining silent not only robs victims of possible relief from the situation but robs them of their power and dignity as well. I can attest to this. I was bullied for four years in the workplace and although I haven't worked there in over 6 years I still struggle with it. I didn't even realize how bad it had been until a few years later when it all started to bubble up to the surface. So I decided to research the subject and found out how prevalent bullying in the workplace actually is and what kind of long term damage it can do. One of my biggest regrets is that I remained silent for those four years.

    I have no more tolerance for bullying. In any form. Anywhere. Period.

    Again I agree, but only under the condition that the administrations are willing and capable of handling the dilemma of bullying. Many of the schools are ill-equipped to confront this issue. That is why I warned against reporting bullying. Not because I tolerate it in the least bit; but putting the problem in the hands of an inept, do-nothing school faculty will only double the torments inflicted by the bullies.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited December 2007
    I know that it is somewhat unfashionable to believe that there are lessons to be learned from history but here goes:

    In the late 19th and early 20th century, workers were subject to slave wages and unsafe conditions of work. Robber-baron capitalists were permitted to treat their work-force in any way they liked. The working classes, the 'proletariat', were powerless and politically unrepresented.

    The answer?
    ORGANISE.

    Women were refused the vote, even though they were (finally) permitted to own property.

    The answer?
    ORGANISE.

    Non-whites and non-heterosexuals were persecuted.

    The answer?
    ORGANISE.

    While people believe that they are powerless, they will be. Alone we can achieve very little but together we can be a force to reckon with.

    Organise yourselves. Not just in one school but across the nations. Refuse to be bullied; refuse to join the bullies; and act together to protect each other.

    If there is no protective group in your area, dear KoB, build one yourself. You have the ability: go for it.

    Power to the people!
  • edited December 2007
    Now that you mention it, there actually was a student made anti-bully organization at my school. There were only a few people involved and I was asked to join as well. I was naturally cynical of it and did not like the idea of it being so secretive. Also, I figured that such a loose group of confederates would be powerless against any actual bullying going on in the school.

    The group dissolved not long after and its very founder became a bully of one of my friends who has Asperger's. Feeling depressed one day following a rejection, I punched the bully in the face (well, elbowed actually) and he never bothered me again. In fact, we have since become good friends and he is much nicer than he used to be.

    The thing is, I just don't see much tangible bullying happen in my school. If there is any bullying, it is very subtle and simply entails exclusion from social activities or just not acknowledging certain people. How do you combat that? Should you even?
  • edited December 2007
    The thing is, I just don't see much tangible bullying happen in my school. If there is any bullying, it is very subtle and simply entails exclusion from social activities or just not acknowledging certain people. How do you combat that? Should you even?

    This has been a very fertile thread for me as a new teacher. I teach a lot of boys who are very physical and it's hard to judge when they are just being boys and when they are being bullies. Such an undefined area!

    But as to your questions above, KoB, I have some ideas. I am currently a bit of a hands-off type of teacher. I was picked on really badly in Middle School (ages 11-13) because I am an outspoken individual, intelligent and artistic, and I had really short hair. :hrm: Middle school was hellish for me!! At one point other students were throwing things at me in the hallway, calling me a lesbian, and that I slept with my female teacher! I was so depressed and masochistic at that point in my life. My brain knew I was better than all that, but, man, was it hell.

    The second I hit High School my world reversed. My peers caught up to my maturity level, and I got mixed in with a more bizarre, and (frankly) punk crowd. Kids who were cruel to me didn't seem to recall the fact and were suddenly nice. It made me laugh and it helped my self-confidence.

    I think kids really need to work through these issues on their own. My kids are not allowed to hit or name-call at all in class, but we all know there are so many other ways that we put others "in their place" socially. Bullying does not vanish and you have to develop lifelong coping skills. As a teacher, I stand back and watch, stepping in occasionally when I feel like someone is unsafe emotionally or physically. If a kid is just feeling hurt, they might be better dealing on their own, but if a kid is in danger from another kid or from their own emotional state, you have to step in and offer something. In Middle School, I needed help dealing with my depression, but nobody could have dealt with the bullying for me. Having an outside force "fix" or organize your problems for you is unrealistic.

    I would like to add, that I pick and choose moments to teach my students "life lessons" about why violence does not solve problems and why self-confidence is so important. But I think these lessons are most effective when they are not emotionally charged and not "in the heat of things."
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