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Attitude towards DARK ZEN!!
ajani_mgo
Veteran
Well I'm not asking for any information on it, I have heard of the legendary debate on NB.com here and heard of their teachings.
Putting aside all forms of Buddhism-or-not and stuff arguments, I would just like to ask that how should we treat their form of (to simplify matters) Buddhism?
Besides I'd think that we Buddhists here who every now and then read into other religions, and in our good-natured spirit of religious pluralism, fit their teachings into our own, how should we expect them to react? Perhaps I'd say (not accusing anyone but as a general rule) that we should treat our Dark Zen buddies in the same way as we want our other-religion brothers to see us as whenever we engage in religious dialogue.
Any views?
Putting aside all forms of Buddhism-or-not and stuff arguments, I would just like to ask that how should we treat their form of (to simplify matters) Buddhism?
Besides I'd think that we Buddhists here who every now and then read into other religions, and in our good-natured spirit of religious pluralism, fit their teachings into our own, how should we expect them to react? Perhaps I'd say (not accusing anyone but as a general rule) that we should treat our Dark Zen buddies in the same way as we want our other-religion brothers to see us as whenever we engage in religious dialogue.
Any views?
0
Comments
When we were visited, here, by the DZ-ists, arguments arose, particularly with our own dear Genryu, who had encountered them before.
Ideally, we should be able to contain, in compassion, even the most obnoxious of posters. Unfortunately, some posters will arouse strong and negative emotions among other members. It was so with the DZ-ists which resulted in a number of people putting them on their "ignore" list (I wonder how many have done that to you or me? We would never know!) This seems to me to be a good solution but Brian and Fede decided that these people were just too disruptive - and I am forced to agree: we have a lot of visitors, guests and lurkers here. Why should they be subjected to such distorted views?
Over the months that I have been a member, we have had a few posters who have deliberately tried to upset and rile us or to impose their own interpretation on us. Some have accepted our open attitude, others have left of their own accord, but there will always be some who are so unpleasant that the only skillful action is to distance ourselves.
Anyway, the translation of the Dhammapada and other texts on his website are highly questionable. Take a look at the Amazon review of Zenmar's (penned as Ven. Shakya Aryanatta) The Authentic Dhammapada of the Buddha:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0971254109/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-5234520-5704021?ie=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155
It's no longer available, but this may give you an idea of what to expect from Zenmar.
IIt would be nice if I could take their views seriously, but I have yet to have or witness a single friendly conversation on their pet topics & they seem to have a rather obvious disregard for the 8-fold path. If you want a reasonable debate with someone who shares some of their views, go talk to Vacchagotta & check out the anatta thread in the 202 section (Zenmar was on the first few pages, btw).
_/\_
metta
Well, likely the DarkZen salespitch appeals to certain types of people with their own predispositions. What actually brought ZenMar to his particular conclusions, I don't really know (though I have my suspicions). A couple of things I have read from him (portions of e-mail to people he was trying to bring in) suggest some energy vampirism, but I'm not sure whether I should post that sort of stuff over here on this thread.
I wouldn't equate them with 'Scientological-type of psychology' as it really isn't bent on this kind of thing. It seems more like an appeal to mystical experience junkies and I've heard some talk of immortality from their camp.
_/\_
metta
_/\_
metta
P.S.- I do respect some forms of Satanism, though I have misgivings towards any sect that encourages hedonism.
my last response was meant for this lol
i missed the right quote button
Of course, I can already think of a few conspiracy theories already...
But does Dark Zen not follow the... For argument's sake, the conventionally-agreed model of "morality" as in the traditional Ten Commandment type of stuff?
You mean the eightfold path? This is all I could find on their site in relation to it, though I might have missed something.
http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/authenticeightfoldpath.htm
I don't really see any discussion of Sila (morality/conduct) there, as the text is written in a highly arcane manner. In my interaction with them, it seems Right Speech is regularly discarded as well.
_/\_
metta
This site itself is not a buddhist. This website is not a human. Therefore, I have a responsibility to take care of the site. It cannot understand disruption and it has a goal of educating people and being welcoming and friendly - therefore the site itself is not showing intolerance or bias by having disruptive posters removed.
I am probably not making that very clear, I just woke up, but I think if you think about it you'll see what I mean
Craig: your instinct is very sound, I think.
I'm very saddened by the little I learned today on this subject. Can't even really form thoughts clearly yet.
Does anyone know what the Dalai Lama's opinion is on Dark Zen?
*Giggle* "Dark Zen....? Think perhaps it's time to turn the Light on!! Dark Zen.....!?" (Shaking head) "Oh, dear, dear dear!!" *Giggle*
But don't quote me on that.....:thumbsup:
Could it be 'euphonious' or 'cacophonous', 'rough' or 'smooth', or any other pair of sensory opposites?
Baddies have timelessly been portrayed as 'dark'....they have constantly been dressed in black, hooded and portrayed as the antithesis of everything 'White, Bright and Right'.....
Do we think it is entirely accidental then, that such associations have begun to stick?
If it is the latter, then it is beyond categories such as Light or Dark, Red or Green, Straight or Gay (now there could be a good categorisation to wind people up with!)
Does the Gateless Gate creak on hingeless hinges?
It's an interpretation that someone has somehow come to. It's their perception of things at the moment.
Whether they are doing this or believing this for attention, debate, or it is what they actually believe - it's their option to do as they will. The teachings of Buddha are there for all.
Unfortunately, when Dark Zen gets thrown into the mix - the conversations usually tend to degrade to name calling, personal denigrating commets and slams, arguing over semantics, spelling, and pronuciation - and just general pontification.
That's why I usually ignore those threads and move onto something less volatile.
-bf
Are there not two seperate issues here being mixed?
There appears a legitmate difference of interpretation on the dark zenists side.
Then there's the issue of the dark zenists posting here being rude and even threatening.
These are seperate issues unless the rudeness is a part of dark zen?
Like a mate told me - just because Hitler says Berlin is in Germay doesn't mean it is not true.
Just a thought...
And a very good one at that. There are definitely two issues of contention here. The largest one to me is the behaviors of those who propegate this form of buddhism. However, there are some very significant doctrinal disputes going on with them as well. Also, the crux of the Buddhist path is its 4 Noble truth's with its Eightfold Path. All doctrine and practice is an elaboration & actualization of this. When interpretations are taken which seem to neglect one or more of the 3 aspects of the 8-fold Path (morality, wisdom & concentration) I generally consider the interpretation to be lacking. So, while the behavior of these people does not necessarily negate their interpretation, I have a hard time taking it seriously as a genuinely Buddhist practice/path.
_/\_
metta
Ah, the hazards of googling and the perils of unsubstantiated rumor-mongering! I'm not posting here to justify any conduct but rather to bring some perspective to this whole "Dark Zen is Satanism" rumor (if you step back from yourself, it really is nothing more than rumor). The Order of the Black Dragon that I am sure you found through google is, according to their site, a Satanist group associated with the Church of Satan founded by Anton Levay. If you compare the Dark Zen philosophy to that of the Church of Satan you will not only find very little similarity and no supportive reference to Buddhism in Levay's "philosophy" (and no supportive reference to Satanism in DZ's), you will find aspects that are antithetical between the two. Given this and the fact that references to black dragons are to be found in Chinese Zen texts, I am pretty sure the black dragon reference is more likely of Chinese Zen origin than Satanic, though I guess even though the connection less likely, I could be wrong! I know it is tempting to spread gossip like this, but...
in friendliness,
V.
As I understand it, "dark" there is symbollic and is as much described in terms of "light" as it is "dark." (see the DZ website) As far as Buddhism is concerned, the so-called "dark principle" is comparable to the well-known quartet of "Nibbana" suttas in the Udana. Compare DZ's discussion of a "dark principle" to "unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated" and "It's hard to see the unaffected,
for the truth isn't easily seen.
Craving is pierced
in one who knows;
For one who sees,
there is nothing."
and I think you will be much closer to the meaning than if you imagine horror movies, witches, satanists, and the rest of that halloween imagery.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.02.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.04.than.html
It seems to me that once the idea that DZ is Satanism takes root, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they talk in terms of "dark" (which, in my understanding means not apparent to ordinary consciousness, ie not of the phenomenal world), they are in trouble for being creepy. If they talk in terms of "light," they are in trouble for invoking Lucifer!
So far as I understand it, Dark Zen is not a discreet school or group, it is just an approach to Buddhism advocated by Mr. Hollingsworth which, so he claims, has a thread throughout Buddhism but is most especially preserved (and forgotten) in Chinese Zen or Lankavatara Buddhism. It is also primarily a way of teaching Buddhist meditation. For my own part, the Dark Zen approach to meditation has been helpful together with study of other more traditional ways.
This is all just my own take on DZ... I can't claim to speak for it, and I could even be misrepresenting it. As for the whole eightfold path, four noble truths idea, the same is often said of Zen as a whole. DZ interprets the eightfold path in a highly mystical light, emphasizing that the path "transcends the world" (see MN 117) and a higher meaning attributed to "Samma" than a behavorial correctness. As for "morality," DZ seems to place more emphasis on Sila as "conduct" as in "conducive to the ultimate goal" rather than morality for the sake of mere pleasantness in world-faring (samsara--like putting lipstick on a pig, I guess). In principle I can't but agree with this philosophy, but any individual case of misconduct I wouldn't justify for any reason, since I don't have a window into anybody's conscience.
in friendliness,
V.
That said, the fact that AE Hollingsworth is a member of such a usergroup does suggest some connection between the two faiths in his worldview. His equation of a "Dark Principle" and that which is unborn, etc. along with his usage of the word light-bringer do suggest a some sort of syncretism here. That's fine, I guess, but I don't know whether that would be an accurate connection. While I am uncertain of what connection there actually is here, I'm not sure why AE would be a member such a user group if he believed in one system, but not the other. And I'm not sure whether AE considers himself primarily a LaVey practitioner who draws upon Buddhism or a Buddhist practitioner who draws upon the LaVey practice. The actual content on the usergroup leads me to believe the former along with reports of his behaviors such as this *. Once again though, I am facing the dilemma of our injunction to not engage in hearsay, and my desire to inform those who may be led astray by this fellow (and I have heard direct accounts of people being led astray such as the link provided).
-All,
Please realize that this is all my own opinion and is reliant upon the factuality of accounts of other individuals such as in the link I provided. I do suppose some of this stuff could be staged, either by AE himself to throw people off, or by people who want to damage his character. However, I do consider many of the people I have talked to in regards to this issue to be reliable and without malicious intent.
Also, there are some issues with Right Speech that Vach has brought up which I may well be violating, so please realize that I do not actively encourage character assassination, though it may be that I am being quite the hypocrite. Furthermore, please realize that even if all the claims against AE's character are true, and there is in fact a connection with the LaVey Path, that does not mean that any or all of the information on the DarkZen website is necessarily wrong. In fact, I am sure there is some legitimate stuff on it. However, I do have some serious misgivings of DZ on the whole.
May all beings be well, free from suffering and not deprived of their fortune duly acquired (Regardless of how they make me feel).
_/\_
metta
I think the most problematic issue surrounding
_/\_
metta
I was trying to point out that I find it more likely that the reference to the "Order of the Black Dragon" is not in fact what you think it is. It's a Zen reference.
in friendliness,
V.
I've gone to the usergroup homepage, and it most definitely a Satanist group. I did, in fact, check it out. It was had all the Satanist trappings, anti-christian inflammatory speech, upside-down pentagrams, etc.
_/\_
metta
P.S.-I tried to find the usergroup, but the webfilter here wont allow access to the B-net message boards
_/\_
metta
*edit*
Did you search the main site, or the message board?
*edit*
Anyway, I am a bit confused now, as I could have sworn that I did find this group. However, so much time has passed that I no longer am entirely certain about it. I will try to find it this evening at home, if I get the chance. I did some google searching & the only thing I found were Satanist references though.
in friendliness,
V.
in friendliness,
V.
You may very well be right, as I am no longer certain of how I came across the link that I remember. If so, I find it personally disheartening that my memory is that unreliable. I was highly convinced of this being accurate & this being inaccurate would demonstrate an acute lack of mindfulness on my part.
I guess this serves, once again, as a personal lesson in the dangers of engaging in this sort of speech and also in the necessity of cultivating mindfulness. So, to all, I apologize if I have given wrong information. I was certainly under the impression that I was not doing so.
_/\_
metta
What you say about Right Speech, and our need for constant awareness and re-evaluation, is immensely important.
There is a tendency, having taken Refuge and with a regular meditation and study practice, to become complacent, to believe that the Noble Eightfold Path has become our "line of least resistance". It is as if we have resolved all the complex problems of living it out because we have a firm intention of so doing. Nothing can be further from the truth. The Noble Eighfold Path is a moment-by-moment challenge, existential in nature.
Each time I have managed to tame some aspect of Speech, Action, View or whatever, another, unexpected hurdle appears. The Path is lifelong.
HHDL is often quoted as saying that his religion is "simple goodness". He is, as usual, joking! Goodness is not in the least simple!
Thanks for revealing my error so respectfully. You could have really run me through on this one.
*bows*
_/\_
metta
P.S.- Thanks for your comments Simon. Certainly your words ring true.