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circumsition and health
angulimala
Veteran
i heard that circumsition is good for health and hygiene, is it true or just myth?thanks
0
Comments
Genital mutilation is an abuse of infants. An unnecessary procedure in most cases, undertaken for reasons of superstition.
No serious study has ever been carried out into the psychological effects of mutilating infant boys. I wonder why - no, I don't!
And don't get me started on Female circumcision....!!
http://www.newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1187&page=4&highlight=CIRCUMCISION
You might want to review some of it. There is some good information in the following pages.
-bf
-bf
But oddly enough... ask many women how they feel about it. Especially women in the US. Odd to find that they are so willing to have it done to their children - and are repulsed by their partners who are uncircumcised.
-bf
fathers that had it done still feel they should carry it on?
also there is more sexual pleasure with this tissue / skin left on..
so they say.. makes sense to me.
and i had the choice to do my son.. i opted no.. but i have seen the proceedure
i had to walk away.. its alil plastic mold that the baby lies on.. with velcro for the
hands and the feet area... so once they are tied down..
ya............ the screaming begins.
sorry im totally againest it.. unless it needed to be done for med. purposes.
and hey.. men that dont have it done or men that do have it done..
it doenst matter to me.. please!
I actually mean that
I was one of those awful fathers that elected it for my son just because it is still the norm in the states (although changing) and I didn't want to have my son stick out in a bad way.
But... I was a slimeball - I couldn't even watch the procedure. I felt like a shit-heel when the screaming started.
There is still a portion of me that is disgusted with myself when I think about that.
-bf
and hey i did alot of things ( well a few lol ) that i regret with my kids to.
when my son was born.. it was 50/50.. at getin it done or not..
now its rare..
your probably a great dad.. and ya no.. maybe he is thankful you did it.
i often wonder if my son wishes..
who no's..
we are only human
I do a great job of that all on my own
-bf
I have helped with over 100 of them when I worked in the hospital. For good or for bad. Was not a Buddhist at the time and to be honest I personally don't know how I feel about this issue now.
Of course, until the Modern Olympiad, no 'mutilated' athlete could take part in the Olympics, thus excluding the Jews.
And Saint Paul won his argument against circumcision at the Council of Jerusalem.
I have yet to discover where the contemporary fashion for indiscriminate butchery began.
I know my children were done at the advise of my pediatrician for the health reasons that have been stated before. At the time I was young and didn't question my physician I acted on his advice and trusting he knew more than I did about it as many parents have in the past and still do in the present. Only in the last few years have parents started to do their own research thanks mostly to the internet I'm sure.
Personally I feel it is even worse to give your children vaccinations. After learning that doctors are not always right and know what they are talking about and doing much research. The long term effects of vacinations can be far more damaging in my opinion than a circumcision any day.
But that issue is probably for a different thread........sorry
I was wondering maybe if you and Yogamama ever felt like it could you start a thread about vaccinations? I don't know much about the controversy or the issue in general but I think Yogamama's mentioned it before. Seems like something kind of important to know.
Vaccinations are a good point to.
In fact, I guess one could question just about everything that doctors prescribe - since none of them have mastered ANYTHING.
Last time I checked, they were all still "practicing".
-bf
Did you ask them just before they were going to go under the knife, while they were being strapped down?
:hair:
she got an answer anyway.. more than an answer.. she got confirmation that they were
glad they had it done!
so i think the jury is out..
its for some yes! and for others no!
case dismissed..lol
well not in this case anyway..lol
case is now open..lol
Yet you would have no problem criticising an Animist for female genital mutilation, would you, Brigid? Just because some of us are jewish by descent does not mean that we have to be in favour of barbarism.
A lot of medical procedures, perhaps even most, would be considered horribly cruel if preformed on someone who had no need for it.
I don't know many who would admit to it or agree with it, but there is an attitude in our culture (perhaps in others as well) that children (and even more so, babies) are somehow less than human. We praise childhood and want kids to be allowed to stay kids longer, but we don't see or treat them as fully human.
But Simon, that's assuming male circumcision is on par with female genital mutilation. I don't think they're the same, do you?
And my point was missed, I think. I wasn't saying yea or nay to anything, I was just saying that calling an entire race of people barbarians is somewhat extreme. Especially for Buddhists. Don't we walk the Middle Way?
Brigid: The Middle Way does not mean that we must put up with what is ethically wrong. The difference between male and female circumcision is only one of scale, when used for reasons of superstition. And what else is the practice in Judaism? How many times have we read criticisms here of the practices of certain Christian and other cults and sects which use mind-bending techniques to create followers? Having lived, all my life, with anti-semitism and the legacy of the camps, I am of the opinion that it is just as anti-semitic to treat Judaism as if it occupied a sacrosanct position, uncriticisable.
Brigid, my dear, I would never accuse you of any sort of deliberate racism. As you say, we appear to be talking at cross purposes.
To clarify, I have not accused "an entire race of people (of being) barbarians". As a child of a rabbinical family, I am aware that Judaism and Jewry are not the same thing: lots of non-semitic Jews. The notion of a Jewish 'race' seems to me to be scientifically dubious at best, rascally at worst. What I object to is the continuation of a rite of mutilation in the name of ancient superstition.
The Universal Declaration on the Rights of the Child sates: An infant male who has his foreskin removed, unnecessarily and without anaesthetic, appears to me prima facie to be "physical...injury...or...maltreatment."
I believe that the Middle Way, as defined by the Noble Eighfold Path, demands that we be involved with the anawim, the poor and outcast. When comfortable, 'white' Westerners like William Wiberforce campaigned against slavery, they were opposed by 'religious' arguments. I was still hearing the same thing from South African friends during Apatheid: it's in the Bible, in the story of Noah - the children of Ham (i.e the people with darker skins) are inferior. I hear it from those who define the 'ghetto' by IQ tests - just another bit of quasi-scientific superstition.
Basically, I reject any theory which sets one group of humans as innately superior to others and gives to the 'superior' group the right to do what they like with the 'inferior'. This is what I learned from my involvement with the struggle for gay rights and for women's equity/equality.
I am not trying to have a fight with you or anyone else. I am appalled and disgusted that the international community continues to permit female genital mutilation. The fatwahs such as the following:
"1981-JAN-29: The Great Sheikh of Al-Azhar (the most famous University of the Islamic World) stated that parents must follow the lessons of Mohammed and not listen to medical authorities because the latter often change their minds. Parents must do their duty and have their daughters circumcised."
are, thank goodness, ignored by the more enlightened states in Islam such as Egypt (cf: http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm).
Nobody can doubt that female genital mutilation is a far more invasive and cruel practice than male circumcision.
Xrayman,
My apologies for misunderstanding your question.
Since it is not possible to ask a newborn if he wants to be circumcised it is up to the parents to make that decision. Just as it is not possible to ask an infant if he would like to be x-rayed with radiation.
It is true that parents are making the decision to circumcise their sons because they where told by there physician that it is a health benifit. Now we find out that it is an unnecessary procedure and the infant goes thro it for nothing.
When an ifant has an x-ray taken, many times they are strapped down to a board so that they won't move and if nothing is found on that x-ray then that infant was dosed with radiation for nothing.
Both procedures are done for the welfare of the child because of what the parents have been told by the physician. One causes short term discomfort......What does radiation do?
You can say that it is such a small dose that it won't harm an infant. If that is the case then why does everyone run out of the room or put on a lead shield when xrays are taken? You can argue the point that those ppl work in the health care field so radiation would build up. But in the nursery where I worked. Even the parents of the child were asked to step out or a lead sheild was put on them. Why, they are not exposed to radiation everyday?
Lots of things are done everyday to ppl at the advice of a physician. Some good and some bad.
No manual comes with an infant when it is born. So parents just do the best job they can with the information they are given when making decisions for their childern. I do not regret the decision that I made for my sons because of the information I was given at the time.
I don't feel parents should feel bad for doing what they thought was best for their child at the time since in most cases they were giving this info. by a physician. Someone they trusted to give them the correct information.
Circumcisions can be debated probably till the end of time. I personally would like to....
Agree to Disagree
Parents just try to do what's best for their kids.
My parents have made many mistakes raising me and my brothers. But no matter how bad these mistakes might have been i believe they always acted in our best interests - so i can't complain (too much).
Personally i'm glad not to have been circumcised and very glad not to have been baptised (thanks Dad). I can always cut my foreskin off if i want to, but growing a new one could prove problematic.
However, the female circumcision which seems prevelant in Africa at the moment is an other kettle of fish...
-bf
People have been talking about the issue, not condemning the parents. And this is an issue I can't ever agree to disagree with. It's cruel to perform a surgery like that when there is no need for it. (The comparison to x-raying infants isn't fair (though something that may well be questionable), because that's not something that's done unless there is a need for it (something is wrong and you need to find out what), at least not here or anywhere I've heard of.)
I've done some hurtful and cruel things to people and I regret them and try not to repeat the same mistakes. There have always been reasons for these actions, and it's good to be aware of the reasons, but the things I did were still cruel, and still wrong. I'm sure most everyone has had similar experiences.
Simon: I hadn't heard of him before, but found a page about the school and that was *very* inspiring. If we'd had schools like that here, and I'd known about them, I would most likely have finished teacher's ed (though maybe not, I'm far too much of an introvert to ever be an effective teacher of groups).
I get the feeling that whenever this discussion arises, I really go to town-I will attempt to dull-down my responses so they are not so spiked.
Brigid, All's okay (you know what i'm talking about). I agree with quite a few of your opinions-as you well know.
Simon, Nice post there are many statements I agree with you on.
Inthedarma, reasonable reply to my somewhat nebulous post!
If we are talking about radiological procedures versus need then you have my full support about the issue of X-Rays and the dosage etc. However, If you wish to debate me on other modalities such as CT MRI Ultrasound and Nuclear Medicine I'd be happy to accomodate. I have a fair understanding of the pro's and cons.
There was mention made of vaccination before. I'D LOVE to debate that one I warn you though, don't get me started.
May I just say (write) that male or female circumcision has been hotly debated about which is worse etc. I still and I think always refer back to the original dilemma-how does the child FEEL? having anything cut off them? neither is the better option as THE CHILD DOES NOT WANT IT DONE. Child, baby or adult without appropriate anaesthetic, sanitary conditions or, and this is the real clincher, NECESSITY!
I have said this before, however I'll repeat it, I have pierced nipples (shock horror), they were done without anaesthetic-IT WAS MY CHOICE. Yes It does hurt. hahaha
To take this a step further, all of us have appendices. They are often referred to as redundant, unecessary even UNCLEAN! SOMETIMES when we are older they become inflamed/infected. In order for this to not happen, and to allow for "cleanliness", I reckon we all need to get our babies off to the village witchdoctor/grandmother/surgeon and (without anaesthetic-because they're babies, they don't feel it anyway), and using a piece of broken glass or rusty knife, cut the appendix out and stitch the wound with thorns and use some dry sand as a drying/cleaning agent to fix the wound so it's nice and good.
Yes I am being facetious. I hope you get the point i'm trying to make.
Aquula, The mere fact that you are Introverted would probably make you a great teacher.
regards,
Xrayman
Don't feel bad. We all understand the issues.
love to you brother. Not all of us can honestly state feelings as succinct as you. More power to you and your children!
respect. And when is the next recording due out?
Simon,
I understand what you're saying. Very good points. Once again I find myself agreeing with you.
Deb,
Beautifully said.
Xray,
Yeah, man. Everything's cool, bro.
There's lots to think about here.
If you would like to debate vaccinations start a new thread on the subject and I'll be there.......lol
I plan to be gone for a couple of days so I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on the subject when i return.......
Eh... the point of that was to say that I wouldn't be able to teach effectively since I can't establish or keep contact with larger groups well enough.
The best role models are those who have had to struggle to arrive where they are.
By the way, Xray, I noticed you don't come around much anymore. If I keep pointlessly arguing with you will you stick around?
No, argue all you wish. I'll survive.
My main problem with circumcision is their potential to go wrong. While I am not sure as to the statistics, there are instances where too much is taken off, which causes some serious problems later in life such as painful erections, irregular curvature & impotence in extreme cases.
Additionally, caring for a circumsized penis requires removing & reappling bandages to an open wound for several weeks. When the blood dries the bandaging can stick & will potentially rip open the wound again when removed. Since babies don't use toilets, this raises the possibility of infection. Interestingly, the opposite used to be true as doctors would instruct parents of uncircumsized children to retract the foreskin. As the foreskin is literally attached to the head of the penis, doing so was very painful and raised the risk of infection even moreso than a circumcision does.
Anyway, thought I'd contribute.
_/\_
metta