Creation v Evolution / Lair of the Unicorns

mfranzdorf

Over the past few days, I have found myself reading along with some very spirited discussions. Earlier this week, it was a story about how explorers in North Korea "found" the long hidden lair of the unicorns that protected an ancient ruler of some type over there eons ago (forgive me for the lack of detail, I lost interest not long into the story). This story was presented though in an attempt to keep the good peoples of North Korea believing in an ancient yet hard to believe situation. However, just this morning, I read a several page discussion / argument between several people sincerely and earnestly arguing over their individual beliefs when it comes to just how this big world and all that inhabit it came to be, and just what the proper way to go about understanding it should be. They were comparing biblical stories with scientific theories on the topic. Feelings were hurt, insults waged and in general, a lot of suffering and anger came out. I didn't read along with this discussion in hopes of discovering the meaning of the universe. As a mere human that is currently practicing and expanding my understanding of what we call
Buddhism, I know full well that THAT particular information was not going to reveal itself in said discussion. Rather, with every sentence of every argument, I smiled. I felt more and more confident in knowing that I didn't know. Ya know?

federica

The fundamental reason people argue, whatever the topic, no matter what the issue - is that both sides want to be heard, and believed to be right.

It is this desire to be 'right' that is the root of all dispute.

karasti

I'd take it another step and say in addition to the desire to be right, people feel very threatened when someone doesn't agree with them. Usually that is a result of them not being as sound in their beliefs as they think they are, regardless of whether it's religious, political, sociological, or whatever. Often times such discussions bring up questions that the person cannot answer or already has doubts about and for someone else to bring them up just reminds them that they don't know the answer for the problem/question presented. Most of them are people where, if they were told one day that their belief was just plain wrong, it's as if their world would implode and they would not know how to go on with their lives. It makes me wonder what people who believed so strongly that the world was flat, felt when they were proven wrong. Then again, some people still believe it is flat!

That is one thing I like about Buddhism. To be able to practice you really don't have to hold onto certain ideals that we don't have the answers to. You can be Buddhist without knowing what you believe about rebirth or karma. But it's pretty hard to be Christian without believing many of the tenents of the faith, and if one of those were ever proven wrong, everything they build their lives around would crumble. I think they realize that and it scares them. It's not limited to religion of course, but it's the most obvious one because people do build their lives around it. When my ex slowly realized he can changed from republican to democrat over the years, even though he knew it was the right thing for him, he described it as almost like a death, losing something he held so tightly to for so many years.

BhikkhuJayasara

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.03.than.html

Sn 4.3 PTS: Sn 780-787
Dutthatthaka Sutta: Corrupted

There are some who dispute
corrupted at heart,
and those who dispute
their hearts set on truth,
but a sage doesn't enter
a dispute that's arisen,
which is why he is
nowhere constrained.

Now, how would one
led on by desire,
entrenched in his likes,
forming his own conclusions,
overcome his own views?
He'd dispute in line
with the way that he knows.

Florian

Hmm. I think there are other reasons for disputes and that sometimes they may be well motivated. But only when both sides choose to have a dispute, as in a dialectical debate, or where we volunteer for one on internet forums, such that some learning is involved, and not when it's just forcing unwanted views on someone.

I always assume that people are happy to dispute issues, on the basis that it's a great way of learning, but I'm learning by disputing that some people dispute the value of learning by disputing. Still, disputation is much encouraged in the Buddhist universities. Or perhaps 'dispute' is the wrong word for that.

BhikkhuJayasara

because we hold on to any view(we have likes and dislikes lead by the "fire of desire"), even a "Buddhist" view.. then disputation will arise.

karasti

There are a whole lot of people who do not like debate and discussion. I cannot tell you how many times during the gay marriage debate people where you try to talk with them about what they believe and they completely shut down and do not want to answer even simple questions. Many of them, I think, don't even know why they feel how they do, just that it was a belief they were taught by parents, by spouses, but their church and they just accept it without looking at why they accept that belief as part of their belief system (regardless of what it is, not limited to gay marriage by any means).

I have or I should say had, several friends who were republicans who would post typical junk online and when I'd point out that what they posted was false, and provide proof, they would just get really angry and upset about it. They won't even accept facts when presented with them, much less be willing to debate anything. People are very attached to their ideologies, overall. I find it sad so many people live lives of blind belief in something they do not even understand or have their own thoughts and feelings about.

David

It should also be remembered that evolution doesn't explain bio-genesis and so creation and evolution can still go hand in hand.

Personally, I don't believe in an absolute first cause either way. Discovering the process which allowed for the conditions for life is all fine and good but it doesn't mean it's the first time it's happened.

BhikkhuJayasara

karasti said:

There are a whole lot of people who do not like debate and discussion. I cannot tell you how many times during the gay marriage debate people where you try to talk with them about what they believe and they completely shut down and do not want to answer even simple questions. Many of them, I think, don't even know why they feel how they do, just that it was a belief they were taught by parents, by spouses, but their church and they just accept it without looking at why they accept that belief as part of their belief system (regardless of what it is, not limited to gay marriage by any means).

I have or I should say had, several friends who were republicans who would post typical junk online and when I'd point out that what they posted was false, and provide proof, they would just get really angry and upset about it. They won't even accept facts when presented with them, much less be willing to debate anything. People are very attached to their ideologies, overall. I find it sad so many people live lives of blind belief in something they do not even understand or have their own thoughts and feelings about.

You seem quite assured of the validity of your own views as compared to others friend .

karasti

Not really, my views have actually been in constant flux and I am open to them continuing to change. I admittedly have problems with people who are closed minded and cannot even discuss the views they claim to have. This wasn't a case where someone had a differing view of me and so I went to them to try to change there mind. These were people who were part of close knit groups, who I know in person. In fact some people who I've had these discussions with were friends of mine, who have since decided not to be my friend any more because they didn't like that I called them on stuff they said/wrote/posted online. In that case, it had nothing to do with my view or opinion, but matters of actual factual information that they posted to uphold their views yet were completely 100% incorrect. I don't go about just trying to make people see things my way, not most of the time anyhow, lol. It's rather a futile way to spend time. If someone is going to post something that is hateful and based on incorrect information, then I will say something, yes.

BhikkhuJayasara

define the terms "closed minded" and "factual information", and from who's perspective? It is good to have your views open to change, as they always are.

I will agree with you that it sure is a futile waste of time haha! I use to be heavily into politics, was a leading member of the Libertarian party in my state and I was always debating people from the left and the right, beliving them to be ignorant to the truth about economic and social freedom etc, but I came to realize that I cannot change anyone, only myself. Which is why I posted that wonderful quote above " the buddha did not change the world.. he made peace with the conditions in it".

karasti

People who have their minds set on only their view and refuse to see anything else any other way. I realize this is their path and we are all at different places, but it's still frustrating to experience when such people are calling your family members horrible names Factual information such as actual #s, not just beliefs or opinions. Things like when Fox news has posted Onion (Satire) articles as fact, and people who watch fox news believe it and talk about it as fact, and post about it online as fact when it is 100% provably false.

BhikkhuJayasara

and people watch MSNBC( the uber left news radio) and believe what they say as well..

this is the problem with having these sides, it leads to disputations.. at the root of it all our greed, hatred and delusion.. our "likes and dislikes".

karasti

Yeah but there is a difference in printing satire as fact, lol. I don't give any news much weight, and try to form my beliefs and opinions on compassion and love. Sometimes, it is harder than others, but I've still come a long ways from where I was 2 years ago
Even within Buddhism there are different paths, though. Many, their path is enlightenment for themselves. Others, their path is to work to enlightenment for all beings.
For me, human rights are not a matter of like and dislike.