Question...

KungaTashi

Hello all once again...

I was watching the Martin Scorsese movie "Kundun" based on the 14th Dalai Lama last night and saw a scene in it I needed to question. After the Dalai Lama's father died they brought him out to an area somewhere, cut him to pieces and let vultures eat his remains. What is the deal with this? Is this just something made up for the movie or is this some custom that Tibetans use? Please help cause it put me off a bit.

zenmonk_genryu

It's called sky burial. There isn't much soil in Tibet, so what there is they tend to use for agriculture, rather than for burying people and that's one reason for the sky burial tradition.

KungaTashi

is it common? If there wasn't much soil it would seem that cremation might be the way to go. It just seems a bit brutal to allow vultures or other animals to eat the body in the wide open. I realize that people buried in the earth feed the worms per say but this scene in the movie was weird to see without knowing anything about it. Thanks for the reply ZenMonk, hope all is well with you!

zenmonk_genryu

It's very common, or at least it was. The reason for there being few cremations is that there is also very little wood in Tibet, so it's a precious resource. Most cooking fires for example use dried yak dung, which I suspect woudldn't do a good job of cremating things. And thank you for your good wishes LOA. :wavey:

KungaTashi

well I now better understand the whole ceremony. Thanks ZenMonk for answering the questions!!

Simonthepilgrim

Unfortunately, this form of disposal of the body for the benefit of carrion-eaters is not permitted in the UK (and, I imagine, in the US). I tend to see this as a sign of the deeply-held Western superstition about the bodies of the dead. The authorities at Bristol Zoo were indignant when I asked if I could leave "Brother Donkey" (as Francis called the body) to their vultures!

zenmonk_genryu

LMAO! Excellent!

Brigid

I was just talking about sky burial with my father the other day and we were wondering if any native North American tribes ever did anything similar. I imagine it wouldn't have much to do with the lack of soil or wood but we were wondering if it might be some kind of offering to the animal spirits. I haven't looked it up yet but maybe I will.

Simonthepilgrim

Brigid wrote:

I was just talking about sky burial with my father the other day and we were wondering if any native North American tribes ever did anything similar. I imagine it wouldn't have much to do with the lack of soil or wood but we were wondering if it might be some kind of offering to the animal spirits. I haven't looked it up yet but maybe I will.

I found this:

Three modes of burial were practiced by the Blackfeet. They buried their dead on platforms placed in trees, on platforms in lodges, and on the ground in lodges. If a man dies in a lodge, it is never used again. The people would be afraid of the man's ghost. The lodge is often used to wrap the body in, or perhaps the man may be buried in it.

from http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/Daily-Life-And-Customs-Blackfoot.html

Brigid

Hey, thanks Simon!

I must have learned about the platforms at some time in my life but then the memory faded to some vague shadow. Thanks for refreshing it!

Palzang

Yeah, sky burial sounds gross, but it's also kind of nice - you know, directly returning to nature without being worm food or being roasted. It's also practiced by the Pharsees in India. They're a Zorastrian sect that fled from Iran centuries ago due to religious persecution (even though they greatly outdate Islam). When I was in Mumbai I saw one of their dead houses, I guess you'd call them. The bodies are laid out on stone slabs, and there are no windows, so the vultures can fly and in and have their smorgasbord. It's isolated enough so that ghouls can't peer in, thank goodness!

Palzang

Brigid

I know this might sound strange but I find it a lovely idea. I agree with you, Palzang. The direct offering to nature is quite beautiful and respectful if you think about. I think I'm going to leave whatever's left of me to organ donation and maybe scientific research or something. Something that may benefit humankind, anyway.

Simonthepilgrim

Palzang wrote:

Yeah, sky burial sounds gross, but it's also kind of nice - you know, directly returning to nature without being worm food or being roasted. It's also practiced by the Pharsees in India. They're a Zorastrian sect that fled from Iran centuries ago due to religious persecution (even though they greatly outdate Islam). When I was in Mumbai I saw one of their dead houses, I guess you'd call them. The bodies are laid out on stone slabs, and there are no windows, so the vultures can fly and in and have their smorgasbord. It's isolated enough so that ghouls can't peer in, thank goodness!

Palzang

I believe that the Parsees in India are having problems with the state governments regarding their method of corpse disposal, especially as the Indian vulture population has been decimated by the use of cattle-protecting antibiotics.

The Zoroastrians in their home country of Iran still have, and use, their Towers of Silence. There is, however, a big difference between the Tibetan and Zoroastrian attitude to the corpse. To the Zoroastrian, it is not only unclean but, more dangerously, deeply polluting. Their matter/spirit good/evil dualism is absolute, whereas I find little of this in the Tibetan literature.

As the son (and assistant) of a forensic patholigist, I find our modern attitude towards corpses very interesting. We appear to be returning to the superstitions of the pre-Christian world! I wonder whether the vast US Civil War and the Northern French WW1 cemeteries may have contributed to it.

Simonthepilgrim

Iranian Tower of Silence.

Brigid

Your father was a forensic pathologist and you assisted him? Oh, Simon, how wonderful!! Ever since I became aware of the profession, and of forensic anthropology in particular, I've thought it was one of the most endlessly fascinating careers in the world. I would have loved to have been a forensic pathologist, going back and forth from the lab or morgue to the courtroom. A scientist and a human witness. It's a noble profession and I would have loved to have been a part of it. Maybe next time...

Palzang

Of course, to the vultures it's all the same what the humans believe about death - the bodies still taste the same!

I also worked as an autopsy assistant when I was in college for a while. Fascinating. Very good charnel ground practice!

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim

I helped in two path labs, with my father and one of his pupils: p. m.s for the coroners' courts usually. As Palzang says, it does give you a different perspective on the human body, just as biology (sciences naturelles) gave me a glimpse of the splendour of the natural world. It also gave me the strong opinion that the body may well be "what" we are but it certainly isn't the whole of the "who".

Palzang

The coroner's court has PMS?!

Yes, working around dead people quickly teaches you that the body is like a suit of clothes that you put on when you're born and then discard when you die. It really is an excellent practice. Not for naught do the yogis practice in the charnel grounds!

Palzang

buddhafoot

Palzang wrote:

Of course, to the vultures it's all the same what the humans believe about death - the bodies still taste the same!

I also worked as an autopsy assistant when I was in college for a while. Fascinating. Very good charnel ground practice!

Palzang

That's the "Twa Corbies" for you, Simon...

As I was walking all alane,
I heard twa corbies making a mane;
The tane unto the t'other say,
'Where sall we gang and dine to-day,
Where sall we gang and dine to-day?'

'In behint yon auld fail dyke,
I wot there lies a new slain knight;
And naebody kens that he lies there,
But his hawk, his honnd, and lady fair,
His hawk, his honnd, and lady fair.

'His hound is to the hunting gane,
His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame,
His lady 'a ta'en another mate,
So we may mak our dinner sweet,
We may mak our dinner sweet.

'Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane,
And I'll pike out his bonny blue een;
Wi ae lock o his gowden hair
We'll theek our nest when it grows bare,
We'll theek our nest when it grows bare.'

'Mony a one for him makes mane,
But nane sall ken where he is gane;
Oer his white banes, when they are bare,
The wind sail blaw for evennair,
The wind sail blaw for evennair.'

-bf

Brigid

His lady fair certainly wasted no time! What a ...!

Palzang and Simon,

I wish I'd had the opportunity to work with cadavers. I can definitely understand how useful that would be for my practice. In order to prepare myself for the death of my cats, with whom I'm extremely close and bonded, sometimes I look at them and imagine their bodies in death. I haven't done that with myself or the folks yet. Working up to it...

Simonthepilgrim

BF,

Thanks for the folksong. Do you like English folk music? Have you come across a very shortlived pairing, Bob and Carol Pegg, who recorded two albums as Mr. Fox? This is one of my favourites:
The Hanged Man
and it is on topic!