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Downloading Music Vs. The 2nd Precept?

edited February 2013 in Buddhism Today
As many of us know, the second precept states that we must not take what is not given. My question however is, does downloading music off a filesharing site break this precept? There's always mixed views on it. My understanding of it works as that it is being freely given by others, as well as the fact that the 5th constitution is not met because I am not taking the original song.

Comments

  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited February 2013
    Different people will say different things, but for me personally downloading any type of media(music, movies, etc) and burning dvds etc, stopped at one point.

    It wasn't the exact second I took the precepts for the first time, but as my practice progressed I did come to see that as stealing and I stopped doing so. People have this wrong view that they think justifies what they do " oh they are rich it doesn't matter". I think it also further solidified my feeling that it was breaking the precepts when I became a photography business owner and started learning about copy-write and the artists rights to their product.

    The Buddha didn't say " take only what is given, unless it's from rich people".. he said " take only what is given". The mind and the ego is a master at justification. it can convince you so quick you don't even recognize it. The more you practice and see how the mind works, the more you see this and can cut it off at the root.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    My viewpoint is this:

    1. If the item is for sale by the owner of the property, and you download it free, then you're stealing.

    2. If the items is not for sale by the owner of the property, and you download it for free, then it is not stealing IF you will buy it if it becomes for sale.

    I'm not saying this is the law...just my view on it in terms of the precept.
    BhanteLucky
  • I don't need any music since pandora! But yeah it is stealing. It's borderline though. The phrase 'let's get readdddy to rumble' from boxing is copywrited, but if I say it to my friend it isn't stealing, you know.
  • Downloading anything for free that you would normally have to pay for is stealing yes.

    When it first started to happen like 10 years ago it was somehow more accepted. The same goes for copied software and the like. I used to have a few things back then and didn't think anything of it but now, and for a long time, I don't have anything that hasn't been paid for or given to me.
  • You should not be worrying about downloading music off a filesharing site breaking a precept. You should be worried about downloading music off a filesharing site breaks the law. Unless you know for certain that the particular composer and artist and producer has placed this out there for free, you could receive a letter from the RIAA lawyers telling you to stop it, and give them a few thousand dollars or they take you to court.

    Having said that, I don't personally think there is actually anything morally wrong from a precept viewpoint with file sharing most music, because it is actually not taking a penny out of anyone's pocket, not in today's world where the recording industry vacuums up all the profit and rights. It's today's version of using a vcr or tape recorder to record and share a favorite song or TV show with your friends. Studies show the minor sharing of songs like this actually boosts sales of the artist's songs from places like itunes, but for the RIAA it's all about control.

    But then my Senator skipped calling and asking me for my opinion when the Industry Lobby wrote the laws for him.
  • Yeah sure. Download all you like. Never mind the precepts. Then people like me can go bankrupt. My entire catalogue has just been put up for free on an illegal Panamanian site. Only low-res MP3s so it doesn't sound much like music, but most people seem happy listening to rubbish sound quality these days.

    But the stable door is open and the horse has bolted. There's no saving the music industry.

    The idea that file-sharing is not taking anything out of people's pockets is the problem. Of course it is. It's stealing.

    A while ago I put a video on youtube for an artist, and within 24 hours it became the featured free video and track on the front page of a file-sharing site. This tested my equinimity to the limit. If artists want to give away their music that is their right. It is not the right of someone else to decide to do this for them.

    So yes, I'd say that stealing music breaks the precepts. In a sensible world this would be blindingly obvious.

    vinlyn
  • @Florian as a book author I do understand the frustrations of seeing your content passed around, when you'd much rather get paid for every download. But the people who visit these illegal download sites with their poor quality recordings were not going to pay you money for an official download anyway. While it's an obvious infringement on your rights to control your property, every free download isn't a lost sale in the same way the last generation had Chinese factories making fake CDs of popular records.

    I agree the old system is broken now that we're in the digital, internet world. Some artists are trying to figure out how to use it, since there's no stopping it.
  • I am currently downloading the Animatrix and also a good anime movie that was suggested to me called 'Dead Leaves' from pirate bay and kickass torrents. Yes it is stealing and it is in violation of the precept, end of. To acknowledge that, does that make it better spiritually speaking? No, I just have no money and am a human being that is not exactly the perfect Buddhist.
  • TakuanTakuan Veteran
    edited February 2013
    You're going to Hell... Buddhist Hell, but Hell none the less. Downloading music is a crime... Like robbing the elderly . (just kidding)

    On a serious note, if you're downloading copyrighted content it is technically stealing. You shouldn't do it.
  • Takuan said:

    You're going to Hell... Buddhist Hell, but Hell none the less. Downloading music is a crime... Like robbing the elderly . (just kidding)

    On a serious note, if you're downloading copyrighted content it is technically stealing. You shouldn't do it.

    No you're correct, Buddhist hell IMO is in this life, right now. You create the hell here and now through ignorance. What is the term used for knowing something is stupid and ignorant but doing it anyway? Apart from 'stupid'? I know what it is in Thai lol. But yea, Buddhist heaven and hell happens here and now, welcome to samsara.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    Florian said:


    So yes, I'd say that stealing music breaks the precepts. In a sensible world this would be blindingly obvious.

    I think we are all sensible enough to realize that this is stealing. You can conceptualize and rationalize all you want. Make any excuses you'd like. But it's still stealing.
    vinlynThailandTom
  • Cinorjer said:

    @Florian as a book author I do understand the frustrations of seeing your content passed around, when you'd much rather get paid for every download. But the people who visit these illegal download sites with their poor quality recordings were not going to pay you money for an official download anyway. While it's an obvious infringement on your rights to control your property, every free download isn't a lost sale in the same way the last generation had Chinese factories making fake CDs of popular records.

    I agree the old system is broken now that we're in the digital, internet world. Some artists are trying to figure out how to use it, since there's no stopping it.

    Yes C, I can agree with this. As an author you must be well up the situation. Not many people who download free music would otherwise be good customers. Either they don't have any money or can't hear the difference between an mp3 and a good sounding recording. There's no stopping it anyway, not while the internet keeps working. I come from the old days of the business though, and find it all desperately sad, especially for young people.

    Still, onwards and upwards. I suppose it's a good lesson in impermanence and non-attachment.

    mfranzdorf
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Cinorjer said:



    Having said that, I don't personally think there is actually anything morally wrong from a precept viewpoint with file sharing most music, because it is actually not taking a penny out of anyone's pocket, not in today's world where the recording industry vacuums up all the profit and rights. It's today's version of using a vcr or tape recorder to record and share a favorite song or TV show with your friends. Studies show the minor sharing of songs like this actually boosts sales of the artist's songs from places like itunes, but for the RIAA it's all about control.

    Come on now. So why not go into McDonalds with your own cup and steal a soda? It would increase your desire for sodas in the long run and the company would sell more. Why not go into 7/11 and steal a bag of chips? Or the grocery store and steal a pound of ground beef?

    You'd think differently if it was your property people were stealing.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I used to download it. Many years ago, back before Napster went under. I don't anymore. Not only do I just find it wrong in a moral sense, I disliked the justifications I made for myself that why I was doing it was ok. One of those reasons included "Well, I only want 1-2 songs, why should I pay $18 for a cd for 2 songs?" Well, just because I don't like the system doesn't mean I'm entitled to get the work a number of people put into the album, for free. This is why Itunes and Walmart's music site and others like it are so ideal. You can get the songs you want for a minimal fee and it's legal. So much better. I don't like how the cable TC system works in the US either. I don't like that I pay as much as I do for so few channels that we watch. But, that's how it works, and I can either play the game and pay for a million channels I don't want to get the ones I do, or I can go without it entirely. I don't get to buy the illegal equipment online that lets me get channels for free just because I feel entitled to have what i want without paying for it the way the system is set up.

    It always helped me to remember that when you buy something, anything, you are not just buying that item. I thought about this yesterday when a lady ordered a half size meal at a restaurant and expected to pay half price. She totally missed the point that it wasn't simply the items on the plate she was paying for. But benefits and time compensated for the fact that the man who made her meal was cooking for her instead of spending time with his family, and so on.

    So, in all, yes, I personally think downloading music from "file sharing" sites is breaking the precept. It wasn't worth how I felt about myself for doing it, nor the risk in getting in legal trouble. But for what it's worth, most people get in trouble for uploading songs, not as much for downloading them. That doesn't make it any less illegal. If you wouldn't walk into a music store and steal the CD then you shouldn't be downloading it for free, either. Same for software (including games and game keys) and movies as well. The worst part is, when you use those types of sites, you are still making money for someone else. Just not the people who actually put in the time and effort and money into making the album. Instead, the money goes to crooks in other countries. So not only are you taking something that isn't yours, you are supporting someone making money off of stealing.

    If you are having to ask, I suspect you don't feel the best about doing it, so why continue?
  • As a music producer, I see where some of you are coming from. I even see my own actions as being wrong. More and more, I find myself feeling bad nowadays when I download, whereas before I didn't care. The truth is, I'm just a middle class citizen. Regardless, It doesn't correct downloading. While it is perfectly legal in my country, it is not ethically legal in my mind. I tried to follow every precept, though it seems I have failed (even though I have not formally taken them.)
    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    we all fail :) I fail daily at not causing harm if I over react and yell at one of my kids, or when I eat meat or drink alcohol. The key is always working on it, always keeping an open mind and being open to change. As you start to notice things shift, you change how you do things. That's a good thing :) None of us are perfect, yet, or we wouldn't be here.
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