Insight Meditation Society

Invincible_summer

I've been looking to try out a Theravada-oriented sangha, preferably in the Thai Forest/Mahasi tradition, but there aren't many close by. The closest thing I've found is a local branch of the Insight Meditation Society.

I know that lots of well-respected teachers and authors (Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, Noah Levine, etc) are affiliated with IMS (or in the case of Kornfield & Salzberg, founded it), but I'm wondering - are they more of a secular meditation group geared towards "stress reduction," or are they rooted in Buddhist foundations (e.g. 4NT, 8FP) but with a greater emphasis on Vipassana meditation?

Jeffrey

Jack Kornfield studied long enough that if he made it secular it is by his choice rather than not having received teachings in the fundamental teachings 4NT, 8FP.

Why not meat the teacher and see for yourself what he/she is teaching.

Also 4NT and 8F are very advanced teachings in my opinion. Until right view is realized it is just self help as without right view all of the other trainings slip. The aesetics who heard the teachings at deer park had been practicing for a long time. Just someone fresh on the Buddha barge is not in the same standing as the aesthetics at deer park.

BhanteLucky

Invincible_summer said:

...or are they rooted in Buddhist foundations (e.g. 4NT, 8FP) but with a greater emphasis on Vipassana meditation?

Yes, I think that sums it up. However, they do tend to put everything in terms that modern western materialists will understand.
Their courses are crazy expensive, but you can do volunteer work and stay there for free if you plan well ahead and can do something like cooking or cleaning etc.
http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/

Invincible_summer

Well, the local group has several sittings a week and are by donation, so I don't have any monetary concerns at this point.

I'm actually not sure how affiliated the local group is with the larger IMS - all the teachers are very experienced and trained in vipassana meditation (the senior leaders were students of Kornfield himself, and the "dharma leaders" are required to have been trained at Spirit Rock Centre), but the website makes no formal connection to "the" IMS.

Not that it really matters, but it might be a reason why there aren't crazy expensive courses or anything like that.

I do intend to check it out for myself, but just thought I'd get some preliminary thoughts on IMS/"Vipassana" groups.


@Jeffrey - Would you say that "Vipassana" groups are quite divorced from Theravadin Buddhism (esp Mahasi/Thai Forest), or does it depend on the teacher? Would seeking out a "true" Theravadin temple that caters to the SE Asian community be more ideal if I'm looking for something that is not "watered-down?"

BhanteLucky

Invincible_summer said:

Well, the local group has several sittings a week and are by donation, so I don't have any monetary concerns at this point.

Perfect! Best wishes

Jeffrey

Invincible_summer said:

@Jeffrey - Would you say that "Vipassana" groups are quite divorced from Theravadin Buddhism (esp Mahasi/Thai Forest), or does it depend on the teacher? Would seeking out a "true" Theravadin temple that caters to the SE Asian community be more ideal if I'm looking for something that is not "watered-down?"

Vipassana refers to a type of meditation, insight. All buddhists eventually practice this.

But the group that titles themselves 'insight' group is not a mahayana group. My concern with a SE asian community based center is that it would be a ceremony without dharma talks and meditation. I think it can sometimes go like that, but this IMS does have meditation so that's good. That's a huge sweeping generalization I made that SE Asian might not incorporate dharma talks of course. I don't think Jack Kornfield would water things down, but he might be trying to find the 'heart of Buddhism' in a way westerners can understand.

Oh, and personally I am a mahayana practitioner of the long distance course taught by Lama Shenpen Hookham.

Glow

Definitely check out the Dharma Seed link James posted. There you can listen to talks from teachers in the Insight Meditation community at various centers. As has been said, the scope of the teachings varies with the teacher. Most are versed in the core of the Pali canon's iterations of the Buddha's teaching, although some will draw more explicitly from the canon (quoting suttas, etc.) than others. Others (like Jack Kornfield himself) are somewhat eclectic and draw from a wide variety of sources (contemporary and ancient) to demonstrate their point. Because the movement is so open, they have teachers of teach from various perspectives. Examples:

- Gil Fronsdal, having studied Buddhism in academia at a doctoral level, teaches a more sutta-based approach; he's very clear and easy-to-understand, but pulls the bulk of his talks straight from the Pali canon
- Shaila Catherine teaches a path of absorption (jhana) focused meditation in the Burmese Mahasi style in addition to pulling from the suttas
- Sharon Salzberg focuses mostly on the brahma-viharas, again with a more Burmese flavor
- Jack Kornfield's approach to meditation is very heart-based; although he studied for a time with Ajahn Chah (who has undoubtedly has a big influence on him; read the chapter on "Stopping the War" in A Path With Heart), I think his thoughts on meditation is more indebted to Dipa Ma, a Bengali woman from Calcutta whose practice was also very heart-based
- Tara Brach has a rather eclectic style; she teaches at the Insight Meditation center closest to me. Being a psychologist and longtime therapist, she pulls from modern psychology and neurobiology. Her practice, however, is Dzogchen, from Tibetan Buddhism; it's similar to shikantaza in Zen, but with more heart-focused instruction

These are just a few examples that stick out to me. Regardless of the style of the teacher, you are bound to find other serious practitioners to talk and study with.

BhikkhuJayasara

The Buddhas core teaching is all about stress!

The noble truth of stress, the noble truth of the origination of stress, the noble truth of the cessation of stress, and the noble truth of the path leading to the cessation of stress.

any true sangha that follows the buddhas original teachings is all about "stress reduction".. in fact they are about " stress eradication" forever! even better.

Jeffrey

Yet if you perceive as stress as something you have to get rid of it makes it more stressful than if you meet the stress and welcome it. The second noble truth in the mahayana is more about avidya/avoidance as the translation of ignorance. Some Theravada it's more like craving whereas mahayana it is about turning away and closing yourself off. So in mahayana we welcome stress.

Invincible_summer

What I mean is that there are groups that seem to identify more as "vipassana" groups than Buddhist or Theravada Buddhist groups. I'm wondering if there's something to be aware of when looking into a "vipassana" group vs a group that advertises itself as Buddhist (e.g. a temple).

I guess one can argue that I'm attached to the "Buddhist" label, but I guess I just want to make sure I'm not getting into any new age-y feel-good stuff.

But I guess I should trust the reputation that Kornfield has.


I got in touch with a Burmese temple but it turns out they only really serve the Burmese community as they have no services in English. Oh well. I'll probably check out the local IMS group sometime soon.

Thanks all for your input. I'll keep posted.

BhanteLucky

Invincible_summer said:

What I mean is that there are groups that seem to identify more as "vipassana" groups than Buddhist or Theravada Buddhist groups. I'm wondering if there's something to be aware of when looking into a "vipassana" group vs a group that advertises itself as Buddhist (e.g. a temple).

Yeah, I've had experience with that.
The vipassana group I was sitting with were actually quite actively anti-Buddhist.
I told them I was going to visit the local Thai Forest monastery, and they went "Why do you want to visit that? You shouldn't get mixed up in that. Just meditate, don't confuse it with "cultural Buddhism"... etc"
Hilarious and sad.

BhikkhuJayasara

JamestheGiant said:

Invincible_summer said:

What I mean is that there are groups that seem to identify more as "vipassana" groups than Buddhist or Theravada Buddhist groups. I'm wondering if there's something to be aware of when looking into a "vipassana" group vs a group that advertises itself as Buddhist (e.g. a temple).

Yeah, I've had experience with that.
The vipassana group I was sitting with were actually quite actively anti-Buddhist.
I told them I was going to visit the local Thai Forest monastery, and they went "Why do you want to visit that? You shouldn't get mixed up in that. Just meditate, don't confuse it with "cultural Buddhism"... etc"
Hilarious and sad.

yes "Vipassana group" does not necessarily have any attachment to Buddhism even though it was the Buddha who first taught it. I will say though that I think what they said is something to be considered about the "cultural" buddhism. I've been lucky enough to find a place where the cultural Buddhism takes a back seat to the original teachings. although these vipassana groups may even consider that "cultural", who knows.

for me I know I can always trust the monastery and to an extent the individual monks over groups like this.

how

@Jayantha
The Buddhist world is full of experienced practioners who had unwavering trust in a monastic institution and now don't for good reasons..
IMO, surrender to the 4 NT, 8 FP, D-o, the precepts and your meditation but don't bias your objectivity of a monastery and those who live on it with either trust or mistrust.

BhanteLucky

how said:

IMO, surrender to the 4 NT, 8 FP, D-o, the precepts and your meditation but don't bias your objectivity of a monastery and those who live on it with either trust or mistrust.

@How, hehe, you know both Jayantha and I are planning to ordain soon?

how

Jay yes but I didn't know you were too. What I was saying wasn't to dissuade anyone from ordaining, just to temper ones evangelical zeal so as to side step another common identity hangout.
Jayantha is probably as aware of Monastery, linage & monk identity traps as anyone.

BhikkhuJayasara

how said:

@Jayantha
The Buddhist world is full of experienced practioners who had unwavering trust in a monastic institution and now don't for good reasons..
IMO, surrender to the 4 NT, 8 FP, D-o, the precepts and your meditation but don't bias your objectivity of a monastery and those who live on it with either trust or mistrust.

JamestheGiant said:

how said:

IMO, surrender to the 4 NT, 8 FP, D-o, the precepts and your meditation but don't bias your objectivity of a monastery and those who live on it with either trust or mistrust.

@How, hehe, you know both Jayantha and I are planning to ordain soon?

how said:

Jay yes but I didn't know you were too. What I was saying wasn't to dissuade anyone from ordaining, just to temper ones evangelical zeal so as to side step another common identity hangout.
Jayantha is probably as aware of Monastery, linage & monk identity traps as anyone.

I understand where you are coming from, but also in my statement I said the monastery "and to an extent" individual monks. Thankfully I have not yet come across any monks that I've noticed concerns over, but no doubt they exist because we are all human, definitely not turning a blind eye to abuses and the like, but I continue to have trust and confidence in the sangha as a whole and it's been my experience because of the rules and how the monastic world is setup there is less chance for such abuses then in the lay community, but still a chance of course. I'm also speaking only really from a Theravada perspective, I only know one Mahayana monastery and I trust those monks as well.

and speaking of ordination, I was at Bhavana Society this past weekend and spoke to Bhante G about more my plan, May 1st 2014, no debt then and ready to go in as a resident with intent to renounce.

BhanteLucky

Jayantha said:

and speaking of ordination, I was at Bhavana Society this past weekend and spoke to Bhante G about more my plan, May 1st 2014, no debt then and ready to go in as a resident with intent to renounce.

May 1st, an auspicious day! (if one follows such superstition!)
May 1st is Beltane, and the ancient first day of summer.
The mid-point between spring equinox and summer solstice.
Interestingly, they circumambulated the bonfires of beltane in the same way as we circumambulate a stupa, or a buddha statue.

BhikkhuJayasara

JamestheGiant said:

Jayantha said:

and speaking of ordination, I was at Bhavana Society this past weekend and spoke to Bhante G about more my plan, May 1st 2014, no debt then and ready to go in as a resident with intent to renounce.

May 1st, an auspicious day! (if one follows such superstition!)
May 1st is Beltane, and the ancient first day of summer.
The mid-point between spring equinox and summer solstice.
Interestingly, they circumambulated the bonfires of beltane in the same way as we circumambulate a stupa, or a buddha statue.

wow interesting lol, thanks for the info.

footiam

Invincible_summer said:

I've been looking to try out a Theravada-oriented sangha, preferably in the Thai Forest/Mahasi tradition, but there aren't many close by. The closest thing I've found is a local branch of the Insight Meditation Society.

I know that lots of well-respected teachers and authors (Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, Noah Levine, etc) are affiliated with IMS (or in the case of Kornfield & Salzberg, founded it), but I'm wondering - are they more of a secular meditation group geared towards "stress reduction," or are they rooted in Buddhist foundations (e.g. 4NT, 8FP) but with a greater emphasis on Vipassana meditation?

There is this Buddhist group called ' insight meditation society' where I live and the group emphasizes vipassana meditation, with the intention of gaining insight, Members come together every Saturday night, I think, to meditate together and there is a layperson who teaches newcomers how to meditate. Once you know the basics of vipassana meditation, you probably will be on your own mostly unless of course, you are the type who probe and pry. The group look rather secular to me, and Theravada in nature. There is no monk to lead the group. After the meditation, there will be chanting in Pali led by a layperson.Once a while, a monk will visit to give Dhamma talk or there will be Kathina etc.