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When Religions Clash
Well, as some may know here, I have been raised Catholic for nearly 17 years now. In the past 2 years or so, I have lost my faith in Jesus. I am now an Agnostic Buddhist.
It seems to be no surprise to my mom and sister at least that I have somewhat lapsed in the faith recently. I question the validity of the Bible, as well as questioning the point of praying and going to church.
My questioning has given me a depper insight into just how easily people will believe anything. The Great Flood, Genesis, talking shrubberies. They don't take their faith ultra-seriously but just kind of go along with what they have been taught.
It is rather a paradox is it not? As little children we are told in science class that things must be variefied before they are proven to be true. We are told to keep questioning until we get the right answers. I just want to know why God and religion should be any different. As supposedly all-powerful and mighty as this guy is, you think he could produce a shread of evidence for us and not some shaky unreliable book that can be used to justify descirmination.
My favorite question has become 'why'. I challenge everything at least I see as important. I believe this is not only healthy but essential for the progress of humanity.
I know many of you have said that you should wait until you are out of the house of the parents before you openly change religions, but I am not so sure anymore. You see, I have always had a very guilty counscience. Luckily it has been reduced since I lost my faith. But I feel like I am being dishonest with my family and myself if I continue to prolong this lie.
I have raised hypothetical questions to my mom before like 'what if I said I wasn't going to church this weekend?' The answer was nothing new to me...'You live under my roof, you live by my rules. And if you refuse to go, you won't be doing any fun activities on the weekends or any other day.'
So what do you think? Do I continue the dishonesty just to please someone else by stopping my attendance at church? Or do I live a lie and follow the same routine every weekend and lose precious time intended for laziness and sleeping?
The conversation ended with this. My mom said "Back in the day, my dad used to tell me that if I had time to enjoy myself, then I had time for God."
I silently though to myself, "What if there is no God?"
It seems to be no surprise to my mom and sister at least that I have somewhat lapsed in the faith recently. I question the validity of the Bible, as well as questioning the point of praying and going to church.
My questioning has given me a depper insight into just how easily people will believe anything. The Great Flood, Genesis, talking shrubberies. They don't take their faith ultra-seriously but just kind of go along with what they have been taught.
It is rather a paradox is it not? As little children we are told in science class that things must be variefied before they are proven to be true. We are told to keep questioning until we get the right answers. I just want to know why God and religion should be any different. As supposedly all-powerful and mighty as this guy is, you think he could produce a shread of evidence for us and not some shaky unreliable book that can be used to justify descirmination.
My favorite question has become 'why'. I challenge everything at least I see as important. I believe this is not only healthy but essential for the progress of humanity.
I know many of you have said that you should wait until you are out of the house of the parents before you openly change religions, but I am not so sure anymore. You see, I have always had a very guilty counscience. Luckily it has been reduced since I lost my faith. But I feel like I am being dishonest with my family and myself if I continue to prolong this lie.
I have raised hypothetical questions to my mom before like 'what if I said I wasn't going to church this weekend?' The answer was nothing new to me...'You live under my roof, you live by my rules. And if you refuse to go, you won't be doing any fun activities on the weekends or any other day.'
So what do you think? Do I continue the dishonesty just to please someone else by stopping my attendance at church? Or do I live a lie and follow the same routine every weekend and lose precious time intended for laziness and sleeping?
The conversation ended with this. My mom said "Back in the day, my dad used to tell me that if I had time to enjoy myself, then I had time for God."
I silently though to myself, "What if there is no God?"
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Comments
"It is not necessary to throw away your tradition or your family. Keep everything and introduce mindfulness, peace, and joy into it."
I'm aware that this does not exactly fit your circumstances, as you don't necessarily consider Christianity to be you tradition, but perhaps you could think about it for the sake of harmony in your family. One of my fellow students was raised Catholic, and so was my mother, and both have had very negative experiences, so I know that the teachings can be rather hard to swallow, to say the least. But before you decide, just try to look at the situation with understanding and compassion with regards to your family. I wish you luck with whatever path you choose.
I am a mom and my son is now about to turn 21. But I do remember when he was 16. You are a minor. No way around it. You have to follow your parents rules. My advice to you is this........
If you openly tell them now how you believe then you will upset them. They will probably think that you are to young to decide something so important as this and will make you go to church even more. They may feel that they need to save your soul. ( I'm remembering when I told my mom just 5 years ago and that was kind of her reaction and I'm in my 40's) Also, it does not hurt to listen to other ideas. By continuing to go to church with them you will continue to learn. Whether it is to confirm that being catholic is not what you want to be or maybe to take some of that you learn there and leave the rest. We have to be able to except others beliefs, just as we want them to except ours.
If nothing else.................It will help you learn patients and tolerance. Two very important things that we must learn in Buddhism.
Just my 2 cents.........Keep what you want........and throw the rest away
Deb
In cognitive development, there is something called the Second Stage of Differentiation (Anna Freud). During this stage, people form their own moral and ethical standards, and differentiate from their long held parental values. So, what you are experiencing is healthy and natural. Yes?
Regarding going to church … setting foot in it does not mean that you are putting your seal of approval on it.
A while back, I went to a zen center I had never visited. In it, the master said he liked to take his students to different zen centers to experience their different rituals, and he advocated the students follow the given forms of the other traditions. He also said that when one steps foot in a church, they should also follow those rituals even if they are Buddhist.
Going to church can be a form of lovingkindness to your mom. It can be an aspect of your practice – selflessly making another happy and/or reducing their suffering.
If we enter into conflict over another person’s belief and certain expectations that belief may put on us, we have to look deeply into ourselves and ask if we are acting from our ego in our opposition. We do not always need to set others straight as to our own beliefs and sensibilities. Too often than not, that just creates more unnecessary suffering.
She also told me an intersting story from when I was a small child. At about the age of 4, every Sunday I would go into the sacresty and ask the priest all kinds of questions. "What was before God? Who were Adam and Eve's parents? What comes after humans?" Deep questions for being a 4 year old.
Apparently my inquisitive mind has been with me my whole life just waiting to show itself. So what do you think? If the priest can't give the answers I am looking for, then that would almost be an excuse as to why I am uncomfortable with going to church.
There is no intellectual apprehension of this Mystery we call life.
We just practice seeing “things as it is.”
I think that this is the best solution to the problem...Let me just throw this out -- it's from Thich Nhat Hanh:
"It is not necessary to throw away your tradition or your family. Keep everything and introduce mindfulness, peace, and joy into it."
well done ROMW!
now some advice from me, go to church-who said there was any conflict between what jesus taught versus buddha? I believe that love thy neighbour is the same in both religions. as is act with compassion etc.
I know that the catholics may freak-so keep your "other" religion to yourself. Im nearly 40 and its taken me all my life to START to be buddhist-you have heaps of time when you are free of parental binds.
regards,
Xray
Thanks! But we have Thay to thank most of all. I'm just an echo.
And you can call me Rambling for short, by the way.
I am unsure still of what I will do. I will most likely decide Saturday before Mass.
KoB,
I think you need to re-read this post, Until it is your own compassionate attitude and actions that matter, I doubt whether you will find real satisfaction or use in any spiritual discipline. Whether those around you appear compassionate "to you" or not is actually immaterial. Buddhist practice does not depend on other people being accepting or nice.
With your Catholic background, you might like to consider that Jesus warned that practising loving-kindness will attract opposition and, even, persecution.
If you and your parents are in conflict, whose responsibility is it to calm the storm?
I came back this morning to add a few comments because it bothered me last night after I got off the board.
You said it far better than I could have.......Well done.
I have just re-read what I wrote and its tone 'sounds' critical. That was not my intention. I wanted to direct your attention to an area of action which could help your practice.
From what you have said, you appear to be a person of both thoughtfulness and energy. Reember: Your energy goes where your attention goes. It wasn't till I started my long and continuing training that I really understood that.
In the religious orders, they used to speak about "discipline of the eyes" which meant that we were to keep our gaze lowered so that our attention could remain fixed on the 'presence of God', without the distraction of looking around.
Discipline isn't a popular concept but I can't think of a better word to describe what a life practice is all about. Consider your own chosen screen-name: the beau ideal of chivalry, in both East and West is highly disciplined. It is interesting to consider what, exactly, is the knightly code of the Buddhist knight.
The Father arrived at the monastery for the first time, and he was walking the grounds when suddenly he saw a man running down a hill waving his arms at him. The man stopped, and then started shouting. He said something like: “Richard! Richard! You teach all over the world!” And then he pointed to the heavens. “Tell the people God is not up there!” He then walked up the mountain. That man was sweet Thomas Merton.
When we look at such people as Merton and Bede Griffiths, we see that they saw the necessity of integrating the East with the West to keep Christianity alive and well.
We can learn from each other. We can become better and purer in our depth dialogues.
:O)
A little story for Catholics:
A young novice nun went to see Mother Superior and told her that she wanted to leave the convent.
"Why is that, daughter?" Mother Superior asked.
"I've decided to be a prostitute," replied the novice. Mother Superior fainted.
When she came round, she murmured, "What did you say, my dear?"
"I want to be a prostitute," said the worried novice.
"Thank God," exclaimed M.S. "I thought you said a Protestant."
I overheard her saying how she couldn't believe where she had gone wrong in raising me. She had taken me to church since I was a baby and now I was breaking commandments. My dad said I was so lazy that if I kept it up, I would be one of those kids who flunks college.
It was here that my jovial mood lessened and I became quite distraught. Suddenly I felt like I was being viewed as a criminal. The worst thing I have ever done was get in a little fight back in 5th grade. I kicked the kid pretty hard and I was the one crying back home feeling so bad that I had hurt somebody.
And they think I am a bad person because I broke a commandment? Maybe the real unwritten commandment is the one being broken here! My dad who overworks himself some 12 or more hours a day and in parts of the winter, not seeing him at night at all. My holier-than-thou sister talking about her friends behind their backs on the phone.
Most of my old friends from grade school are either alcoholics, potheads, thieves, or are awaiting sentencing in juvenile court. And we went to Catholic school! I on the other hand never have smoked, am repulsed by alcohol, keep good friends, and save up all my money at my job. I maintain a borderline 4.0 in school making over a thousand dollars worth of scholarships each year. I was accepted to the All State Band this summer spending two weeks playing there. Apparently all this is ignored when I miss one weekend of mass.
I am truly sorry.
My dear KoB, my heart bleeds for you! I have seen so many good and valiant young people ground down by the intolerance of parents, and it is always heartbreaking.
So often, as you say, it isn't even as if they were brilliant examples!
Be brave, my friend. I will end. When that time comes and you have stuck to your principles, you will find freedom easier to bear.
You have made good e-friends here and, I would guess, elsewhere. Lean on us. We may only be able to sympathise; we may give useless advice; but be sure of this: we care.
You're in a difficult situation, really. You are expected to give respect to your parents. However, your conscience also pulls you in another direction. You list many wonderful qualities you posess: hardworkingness, diligence, thoughtfulness. You also list many accomplishments. Perhaps you should remind your parents of your good qualities, if they've forgotten? My advice is often confrontation, not in the negative way that it has come to mean now, but, more like a knight, head-on. Perhaps this is not useful for you, however, as it seems your parents have already made up their mind.
I don't know what kinds of practices you engage in, but this is a time for compassion, for yourself and for them. Be compassionate towards your parents. Be gentle with yourself. This does not mean that you must necessarily conform to their wishes. Look into your heart. I suspect that you also have a role in this conflict, whether you wish to admit it or not. Is there a way to come to some compromise?
As a last ditch-effort, perhaps it would be useful for you to focus on Jesus as Teacher for now, that is, as I have posted elsewhere, "Jesus Roshi"? Jesus Roshi does have many things to say to being awake.
Be well, KoB. Sometimes what appears as defeat is actually a victory in disguise.
Peace,
Your story made me cringe and I really, really feel for you. It must be particularly rough at this time in your life when you're natural and healthy inclination is to pull away from your parents in order to start taking the first steps in making your own way as an independent adult. You haven't rebelled like some of your peers but you're rebelling in your own way, which is exactly as it should be.
Your parents are scared. This is the most important thing for you to know. Perhaps they have forgotten that it is essential for you to start pulling away from them and their authority over you. Perhaps they don't appreciate just how deeply moral and good your behaviour has been. Whatever the case, their reaction has been to exert even more control over you, exactly the wrong reaction and one guaranteed to cause deeper conflict in this situation.
So, your first wise move should be to understand that they're coming from a place of fear and to do everything in your power to calm those fears. You can't control your parents but you can control your reaction to them and to do that you need to know that what they're doing is based in fear.
Your second wise move would be to do a little research. Find an authoritative source your parents will respect that can help them understand this stage in your teenage development and how it's important that they don't try to smother your sense of independence. Try Catholic youth counsel on the web. There are many, many wonderful Catholic websites aimed at teenagers and their parents that can be of help to you.
You can get through this very trying time with the least amount of conflict if you tap into your wisdom and compassion. Take it slowly and gently. Your anger will only serve to strengthen your parents' belief that you don't have a valid spiritual path. Show them other wise.
I don't know about you, KoB, but in my Catholic school (I was Catholic educated my whole life!), there was at least one priest (frequently more) who know of the important Catholic-Buddhist dialogue. Have you thought about talking to one of those guys? Tell them your interests. Ask one of them for help. It's radical, but...
Anyway, after missing Mass, later that evening, I brought the subject up again. I thought of this conflict as I do with all mine as if it were a chess match. Or even imagining what a chivalrous knight would do in such a situation. It helps me better visualize what I am trying to do. So like a knight, I went head on with the tough questions. "Why do we go to Mass?" The answer was because that was our faith and all religions do something similar. I said that this was incorrect and that only theistic religions pronounce a faith and worship. So I was perplexed...the reason we go to church is because lots of other people do so and because we were taught to do so? (This sounded a lot like the story of the Buddha and the kalamas)
I also asked what would happen if I went to the gun show with my friend instead of Mass early on Sunday. "Well you can forget about the computer, the phone, T.V., and friends for the day and even longer than a day if we have to," was the response given.
I think the narrow-minded responses have more to do with fear of change rather than fear of me thinking differently. My unusual knowledge of other traditions and philosophies intimidates my family when I suggest a contrasting idea to long held comfort beliefs.
So I am not so sure what to do for this weekend. Either way, I can forget about antique gun shows. If they are really serious about grounding me, I will take it as a knight or samurai would. Meditation and masturbation go a long way in boredome.
Can't you go to Mass on Saturday instead of Sunday?
Just asking...
You have tons of good advice here. I have a practical piece. When I feel really crazy I get my prayer beads (Buddhists have prayer beads too) and feel their smoothness. They are like a sword. The fact is, no matter what your parents say, you are you. You can obey their demands, but that is just the outside part, and you can still be you inside. It sounds like they are a bit rigid and as Bridget said, too fearful to cope with changes -- but you don't have to change your thoughts and who you are, and you sound wonderful. Hang in there! You have a lot of Buddhist friends on the web.
Cheers to you!
;-)
Oh, I play the Alto Saxophone in the band. I consider myself to be quite tough despite gentleness. I probably would not be picked for fights by bullies and gangs if I had looked like I do now.
And although i don't wanna say it, People who consider themselves 'Christians' - bit personal that but i can't help it. especially 'fundamentalist, we like to group, we accept the bible as absolute, our ego is god' ppl.. all i can say to that is "Heil Hitler"
Problem with everything is society and religion in my opinion. Can't change it..
People are biased, religion is biased, churches, priests are biased, society is biased, courts are biased, workplace is biased. The answers are never in these places.. you can't have wisdom without having open-ness and non-bias. I wouldn't listen to your parents, they are 'biased' lol and i wouldn't listen to a priest because they make stuff up and quote stuff that contradicts itself.
I wouldn't consider yourself tough, thats ego, i keep having to remind myself when i think that way that i'm nothing and everything.
I have problems with God, because i still partially believe.. and theres no reason for me to.. its horrible, I hate churches and religion..
because no one is really any name or group and its responsible for so much hate and death. Being raised as a christian makes you take it up as your indentity and of course its a false one, pumped into you as a child. Because its your indentity most ppl find it offensive when questioned, they feel as though they themselves are being attacked.
Ideal's, Idea's, Religions do not breath and do not think. Compared with humans beings they are truelly worthless.Abolutist beliefs are nothing more than the bane of social division and the start of hatred.
anyways there's a few of my thoughts before i meditate.. shud be other way round really
I honestly have nothing against religion. It has no inherrant qualities of good or evil. It is the people in charge that are always the instigators.
Yeah, I play(ed) tenor sax!
Brigid, I can definitely say that marching band is a great workout. I was always in my best shape after marching band camp.
I work out but ppl still make fun of me, i can jog 4 miles or sprint 1.. and i lift weights..
was on the bus and ppl were talking about whether i was an emo.. like dude.. pfff..
I was a twirler and a majorette too.........heehee hard to believe....a live time ago.
My favorite was jazz band.........didn't have to march or anything just play
I'm lazy.......lol