Five Positive Precepts.

Citta

The Sutrayana view is to see certain behaviours as representing a barrier to seeing things as they are.
The Dzogchen view is that things are always just as they are..
So one version of the precepts ( which in many Dzogchen schools do not feature at all ) recognised by some Dzogchenpas goes like this;

To avoid killing the awareness of the sparkling radiance of Rigpa which shines through all things.
To avoid stealing opportunities for awakening.
To remain in the embrace of the khandro or pawo. ( analogous to the anima/animus of Jungian therapy..)
To avoid expressing the lie of duality.
To refrain from the intoxication of duality.

Just puttin' it out there.

Cinorjer

That's a rather interesting riff on the precepts.

Citta

I thought so..

Chaz

Cinorjer said:

That's a rather interesting riff on the precepts.

Same here. Very interesting.

I'm probably 50 births away from Dzogchen, but I do like what represented in Citta's rendering.

Something to look forward to. Sort of. Well, maybe not

zenff

Nice precepts. They appear to give space.
The traditional precepts sound like they take space away (you can't do this, you can't do that). But I know there's more to it.

Nevertheless. I like the Dzogchen version a lot. Thanks for sharing

seeker242

That is nice, just as long as you don't think it's now ok to kill living beings, steal things from your neighbor and lie to your friends and get drunk every night.

karmablues

"To avoid killing the awareness of the sparkling radiance of Rigpa which shines through all things."

Does that mean if when defiled thoughts arise in the mind and we react to them by acting in an immoral manner instead of seeing their true nature, this would be considered as "killing the awareness of the sparkling radiance of Rigpa?"

In fact, those Dzogchen precepts actually seem to be very broad and I am thinking it is possible that they actually cover much more ground than the narrow Buddhist five precepts (when these Buddhist precepts are read in a literal manner).

For example, punching someone out of anger is not, strictly speaking, covered by the narrow/literal interpretation of the five Buddhist precepts. But it does seem possible that punching someone out of anger would be in breach of at least one of the Dzogchen precepts. Is this correct?

Citta

Do you think it would be possible to do those things, including punching someone, if you are 'refraining from the intoxication of duality ?'

caz

Citta said:

The Sutrayana view is to see certain behaviours as representing a barrier to seeing things as they are.
The Dzogchen view is that things are always just as they are..
So one version of the precepts ( which in many Dzogchen schools do not feature at all ) recognised by some Dzogchenpas goes like this;

To avoid killing the awareness of the sparkling radiance of Rigpa which shines through all things.
To avoid stealing opportunities for awakening.
To remain in the embrace of the khandro or pawo. ( analogous to the anima/animus of Jungian therapy..)
To avoid expressing the lie of duality.
To refrain from the intoxication of duality.

Just puttin' it out there.

This is a nice take on bringing the view into the path of daily actions !

karmablues

@Citta

Yes, I do believe it wouldn't be possible. So it does seem that the Dzogchen precepts are much more all-encompassing than the five Buddhist precepts. Also, while the five Buddhist precepts can be said to target solely on forms of outward behaviour (as manifested out of the coarser states of a defiled mind), the Dzogchen precepts seem to extend beyond dealing with just outward forms of behaviour and reaches into the inward qualities of the mind at refined levels as well.

Therefore, I would posit that while the five Buddhist precepts are aimed at laypersons in general by providing a kind of minimum standard of moral behaviour, the Dzogchen precepts seem more suitable for meditators since some of them seem to presuppose that the observer of the precepts is undergoing mental training. This is especially the case with regard to refraining from the intoxication of duality (since it appears that anyone who wishes to observe this precept properly would need to undergo mental training).

So in a way, I think it can also be said that while the five Buddhist precepts can be seen as expressing standards of behaviour that can realistically be fully observed by lay people, the Dzogchen precepts tend more to express somewhat lofty goals where the underlying assumption is that it is not really possible for practitioners to avoid breaching them. So it kind of prompts the practitioner to undergo more mental training so as to be able to observe these precepts to a higher degree. In my own practice, the five Buddhist precepts function in this way also as I interpret them broadly and in a non-literal manner as well as in conjunction with various relevant Suttas on virtue and wholesome conduct which includes mental conduct.

One more observation. It seems to me that the fifth Dzogchen precept envelopes all of the other four? ie. if you succeed in refraining from the intoxication of duality then there is no question of transgressing the other four Dzogchen precepts either.

Citta

I accept much of what you say.
However I would add that the basis of the Dzogchen view is not training.
It is receiving the 'pointing out ' from a Dzogchen teacher.
In Dzogchen you start by realising the goal.
You then have a lifetimes work in integrating that.
That integrating does not consist of gaining anything...but in maintaining the View.
Which happens by non-effort.

karmablues

Citta said:

In Dzogchen you start by realising the goal.
You then have a lifetimes work in integrating that.

I think that aspect is quite similar to the view concerning the Buddhist practice as seen through the Noble Eightfold Path where it often said that Right View is both the beginning and the end of the path ie. The path begins with an intellectual understanding into the nature of reality (which spurs us into training) and ends with a complete, penetrative insight into the true nature of all things.

Citta

'pointing out the natural mind' is an experience which has little or nothing to do with an intellectual understanding @karmablues...the teacher introduces to you the original state prior to D.O. This is called the View.
The task then is to maintain that View

karmablues

So all Dzogchen students would have experienced an aspect of ultimate reality such as the absence of a self? Would that be similar to stream-enterers in Buddhism who are said to have caught a glimpse of the truth? If yes, then I suppose once a Dzogchen student receives this pointing out then s/he should obtain an unshakeable faith in his teacher and the Dzogchen teachings, the same way that it is said a stream-enterer would obtain an unshakeable faith in the Buddha and his Dhamma. This unshakeable faith then results in very quick progress along the path to the final goal.

Citta

I am not sure that comparisons between the systems helps in understanding. They are posited on very different premises..the Ariya states...Stream Enterer etc do not feature at all in many presentations of Dzogchen.