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In order to comment on what the Buddha said, you first have to understand it. Perhaps Dudjom Rinpoche said it best in his confessional prayer:
Putting on the appearance of Dharma, we even think we are practitioners, yet this mind falls far short of perfect practice. Lacking even human dharma, why ask about the Buddhadharma?
With a vague notion of the sixteen rules of proper human conduct, when examining ourselves our own bad deeds bring us no shame.
When it comes to others, our patience is as short as the tail of the drawa mouse.
Unable to execute the ten virtuous actions of Buddhadharma, full of sectarian bias although there is only one Teacher and one Teaching, we criticize teachings and sages, accumulating bad karma. Using Dharma in this way is just carrying along a big burden of sin.
We've heard a lot of teachings, but it has only increased our pride. Our mental analysis does not penetrate the depths of their meaning...
Give up the path on which you know so much but miss the one essential point. Should we not now enter the path of knowing the one thing that liberates all?
With metta,
Palzang
The words of lamas have no force or meaning apart from transmission. Ask them. They'll tell you.
I don't have a quarrel with you or Dudjom. But he's off topic on my thread until his lineage has created an American lineage holder. They've doigged, and dogged it, and dogged it, and prevaricated, and probably lied shamelessly through their teeth on numerous occasions, and perhaps it's because,. with this kind of negative self-conception, they just can't do any better.
On the whole, they are probably stupider than I thought originally, and I probably should transmit to them, just to break the deadlock, because the way they putze uselessly and endlessly in America is getting so boring.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2006
* You can't dictate what is 'on' or 'off' topic on any thread (and you may have started it, but it isn't "Yours") if it is in response to something posted.
A Lama's function is to transmit, that is true, but there is more to it than mere transmission...it is to be taken as instruction and meditated upon, digested and thought about....
Your posts have little finesse or delicacy about them... you seem intent with each comment to 'pick a fight and to contradict, with no thought or consideration for the courtesy or politeness you have always received from others. I cannot fin one post in these threads from you, that isn't somehow a veiled cutting remark.
I think you need to cool off and consider your position for a while..... *
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2006
*I have banned Xing Ping for 1 week in order to give him the opportunity to reflect upon his manners and attitude. He will be free and welcome to return after this time, if he so chooses, but I am hoping he will take period to reflect.
The words of lamas have no force or meaning apart from transmission. Ask them. They'll tell you.
I don't have a quarrel with you or Dudjom. But he's off topic on my thread until his lineage has created an American lineage holder. They've doigged, and dogged it, and dogged it, and prevaricated, and probably lied shamelessly through their teeth on numerous occasions, and perhaps it's because,. with this kind of negative self-conception, they just can't do any better.
On the whole, they are probably stupider than I thought originally, and I probably should transmit to them, just to break the deadlock, because the way they putze uselessly and endlessly in America is getting so boring.
Saying there is an 'American' Buddhism as opposed to Buddhism & other forms of Buddhism in the sense you seem to be implying is a little too much for me. It is not a self-existent thing. While there will be lineages taylored to Americans, based in Amerca, which reflect the American Environment, saying there is something that can be definitively called "American Buddhism" as opposed to other forms of Buddhism, in any sense beyond this, is questionable. Dharma is Dharma. Different lineages are simply different takes. While there are some things between lineages that don't apply to others, there are a good deal of teachings that apply to all schools & I think we can all benefit by reflecting on the teachings outside our own lineages. And the words of lamas have plenty of force & meaning outside of a transmission. Ask them. They'll tell you. But if you choose to resist/ignore the words, then I guess you're right.
Off-topic? I beg to differ. The quote is quite relevent to the current discussion. You might have noticed that if you had actually taken the time to consider what was said. And, once again, if you are going to make accusations, please provide evidence & specific references.
In regards to renowned Buddhist Masters being stupid, I'm not you have any basis to make such a statement (other than ignorance). As far as you transmitting to them, once again I don't see any basis for you being qualified to do so.
On the whole, pretty much all I have seen from you is arrogance, ignorance & an unwillingness to hold the mirror up to yourself & consider the consequence of your actions. You rely too much on your thoughts & perceptions and obviously do not investigate them thoroughly, or your speech would be less offensive. Sorry, but you have been very, VERY offensive & I'm not just going to sit here speechless in regards to what you say.
_/\_
metta
P.S. I originally posted this before I saw Fede's post. Also, I edited my comments on American Buddhism, as I had originally intended to explain what I meant. Hopefully my new statements clarify what I was trying to say.
May I suggest that we, too, spend the next seven days reflecting on our reaction to Xing Ping? I freely admit that I have a really hard time with the way in which he expresses himself and the content of much that he posts. It has been useful to me both to examine my own reactions and to spend some time looking into his assertions.
It is a fascinating thought that Buddhism, like Christianity and, I dare say, other faiths although of this I am not sure, could be acquiring a genuinely "American" face and language. The great writers of the United States and Canada have already found a genuine and recognisable voice, as have composers and fine artists. Historically, the development of a specific voice has led to 'naturalising' religious phenomena: examples would be Luther, German and the German reformation, and Cranmer with the Prayer Book. There is, I would imagine, a really interesting debate and investigation to carry forward.
For example, Palzang would have fascinating insights for us all on how the Tibertan tradition is both the same as and different from the 'mother' culture. Each of us could bring some particular aspect.
Personally, I am currently of the opinion that there is not yet an authentic founding document on which American Buddhism can build itself.
I shall be offering any merit that I may acquire one hour each day for the specific benefit of Xing Ping, in the hope that he can return to us happier and more peace-loving.
Thank you, Fede., for giving us all this opportunity.
Yes, Simon, quite right. The way American Buddhism will look is still undetermined, but it is in the process of evolving even as we speak. Our particular version of it as taught by my teacher will be but one face among many, of course, and it is truly fascinating to see it develop. It is, as you say, like and not like its progenitor. Jetsunma has told us on many occasions that we are creating an American Buddhism, so we had best be mindful of what we're creating. The foundation we lay will influence Buddhism in the West from now until Buddhism is forgotten in this world. Kind of a heavy responsibility!
As for Xing Ping's so-called views, I'm personally getting rather tired of responding to him. He gets a lot of attention for his outrageous views on things, and I don't think they're worth the effort, personally. If he wants to place himself above enlightened beings, that's his problem and his karma. I don't think we should continue to respond because A) he ain't listening, and we're giving him a lot of power by responding, which is a complete waste. So I'm done.
I guess the way American Buddhism will develop will depend on the other traditions too. Buddhism spread from the East to West, before spreading from the West to East back again.
It seems that in the creation of the American lineage, the essential "Self" and the well-known average American attitude to live as an individualist must go, as with other traditions which have found out after hundreds of years of survival.
The concept of the "teacher", be it religious or not, seems very different for the East and the West. While in the East, there seems to be a strong hierachy to obey, and the teacher remains the "father figure" over the disciple - to the extent where the disciple must keep silent even when beaten at times, in the West, it seems only right for the student to literally discount the teacher's insights, and expect the teacher to see things from the disciple's point of view. In fact, right in our education systems, can you see this huge difference.
To me personally, it seems that some sort of mutual compromise is required between the two cultures. The East, for a start, could learn to respect the student, and the West, respect the teacher.
I was referring more towards the conventional secular teacher, Palzang, even though I was thinking that perhaps the attitudes towards such teachers could also ultimately affect our attitudes towards our Buddhist teachers - even though that may be unproven. Could it - as newcomers to Buddhism might hold such cultural expectations of teachers?
May I suggest that we, too, spend the next seven days reflecting on our reaction to Xing Ping?
Although I was not an active particpant on this thread, I found that I had some strong reactions to many things that were written here. I think I will take some time to reflect on my feelings. Thanks for the suggestion Simon (and Federica too)! :thumbsup:
Comments
The words of lamas have no force or meaning apart from transmission. Ask them. They'll tell you.
I don't have a quarrel with you or Dudjom. But he's off topic on my thread until his lineage has created an American lineage holder. They've doigged, and dogged it, and dogged it, and prevaricated, and probably lied shamelessly through their teeth on numerous occasions, and perhaps it's because,. with this kind of negative self-conception, they just can't do any better.
On the whole, they are probably stupider than I thought originally, and I probably should transmit to them, just to break the deadlock, because the way they putze uselessly and endlessly in America is getting so boring.
A Lama's function is to transmit, that is true, but there is more to it than mere transmission...it is to be taken as instruction and meditated upon, digested and thought about....
Your posts have little finesse or delicacy about them... you seem intent with each comment to 'pick a fight and to contradict, with no thought or consideration for the courtesy or politeness you have always received from others. I cannot fin one post in these threads from you, that isn't somehow a veiled cutting remark.
I think you need to cool off and consider your position for a while..... *
Saying there is an 'American' Buddhism as opposed to Buddhism & other forms of Buddhism in the sense you seem to be implying is a little too much for me. It is not a self-existent thing. While there will be lineages taylored to Americans, based in Amerca, which reflect the American Environment, saying there is something that can be definitively called "American Buddhism" as opposed to other forms of Buddhism, in any sense beyond this, is questionable. Dharma is Dharma. Different lineages are simply different takes. While there are some things between lineages that don't apply to others, there are a good deal of teachings that apply to all schools & I think we can all benefit by reflecting on the teachings outside our own lineages. And the words of lamas have plenty of force & meaning outside of a transmission. Ask them. They'll tell you. But if you choose to resist/ignore the words, then I guess you're right.
Off-topic? I beg to differ. The quote is quite relevent to the current discussion. You might have noticed that if you had actually taken the time to consider what was said. And, once again, if you are going to make accusations, please provide evidence & specific references.
In regards to renowned Buddhist Masters being stupid, I'm not you have any basis to make such a statement (other than ignorance). As far as you transmitting to them, once again I don't see any basis for you being qualified to do so.
On the whole, pretty much all I have seen from you is arrogance, ignorance & an unwillingness to hold the mirror up to yourself & consider the consequence of your actions. You rely too much on your thoughts & perceptions and obviously do not investigate them thoroughly, or your speech would be less offensive. Sorry, but you have been very, VERY offensive & I'm not just going to sit here speechless in regards to what you say.
_/\_
metta
P.S. I originally posted this before I saw Fede's post. Also, I edited my comments on American Buddhism, as I had originally intended to explain what I meant. Hopefully my new statements clarify what I was trying to say.
It is a fascinating thought that Buddhism, like Christianity and, I dare say, other faiths although of this I am not sure, could be acquiring a genuinely "American" face and language. The great writers of the United States and Canada have already found a genuine and recognisable voice, as have composers and fine artists. Historically, the development of a specific voice has led to 'naturalising' religious phenomena: examples would be Luther, German and the German reformation, and Cranmer with the Prayer Book. There is, I would imagine, a really interesting debate and investigation to carry forward.
For example, Palzang would have fascinating insights for us all on how the Tibertan tradition is both the same as and different from the 'mother' culture. Each of us could bring some particular aspect.
Personally, I am currently of the opinion that there is not yet an authentic founding document on which American Buddhism can build itself.
I shall be offering any merit that I may acquire one hour each day for the specific benefit of Xing Ping, in the hope that he can return to us happier and more peace-loving.
Thank you, Fede., for giving us all this opportunity.
As for Xing Ping's so-called views, I'm personally getting rather tired of responding to him. He gets a lot of attention for his outrageous views on things, and I don't think they're worth the effort, personally. If he wants to place himself above enlightened beings, that's his problem and his karma. I don't think we should continue to respond because A) he ain't listening, and
Palzang
It seems that in the creation of the American lineage, the essential "Self" and the well-known average American attitude to live as an individualist must go, as with other traditions which have found out after hundreds of years of survival.
The concept of the "teacher", be it religious or not, seems very different for the East and the West. While in the East, there seems to be a strong hierachy to obey, and the teacher remains the "father figure" over the disciple - to the extent where the disciple must keep silent even when beaten at times, in the West, it seems only right for the student to literally discount the teacher's insights, and expect the teacher to see things from the disciple's point of view. In fact, right in our education systems, can you see this huge difference.
To me personally, it seems that some sort of mutual compromise is required between the two cultures. The East, for a start, could learn to respect the student, and the West, respect the teacher.
You fundamentally do not understand the role of teacher and student in Buddhism. It's nothing at all like what you described.
Palzang
Although I was not an active particpant on this thread, I found that I had some strong reactions to many things that were written here. I think I will take some time to reflect on my feelings. Thanks for the suggestion Simon (and Federica too)! :thumbsup: