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Mass conversions to Buddhism
Simonthepilgrim
Veteran
Few things so clearly underline our 'Western' style of Buddhism and that which obtains in the Subcontinent:
Mass conversion of Dalits
Dalits (who used to be called 'Untouchables') are converting en masse to Buddhism, with some becoming Christian, in order to remove themselves from the Hindu caste system. It is a profoundly political and economic action rather than 'religious'. It is also causing a great deal of trouble, provoking draconian anti-conversion laws.
Any thoughts?
Mass conversion of Dalits
Dalits (who used to be called 'Untouchables') are converting en masse to Buddhism, with some becoming Christian, in order to remove themselves from the Hindu caste system. It is a profoundly political and economic action rather than 'religious'. It is also causing a great deal of trouble, provoking draconian anti-conversion laws.
Any thoughts?
0
Comments
Palzang
I agree that the Dalits are trapped in a system that, personally, I find abhorrent. What troubles me, however, is the concept of mass 'conversion' to a religion in order to escape a social structure.
Also, does Buddhism have a concept of ex opere operato, where the 'sacrament' confers grace of its own nature rather than as a result of the personal disposition of the participants? In Christian theology, baptism, the sine qua non of most sects/groups/churches, is effective even on a baby or an unconscious person. How can this be the same with Taking Refuge? Or is there a view that , whatever the 'refugee's' intention and for whatever reason they are there, Taking Refuge operates at a level outside that of intention and will?
This is a sincere attempt to understand the approach and the theory behind it. Were I, as a pacifist, to be called to war, the Religious Society of Friends would not, I imagine, accept me as a member simply so that I might gain the status of conscientious objector without some further evidence of "Quakerishness".
On the other hand, I can also see, in the caste system, a reflection of the dukkha nature of life from which Refuge promises escape. That it should bring about real and tangible escape from a system of bondage, as does conversion to Christianity (or, I imagine, Islam), is a wonderful outward sign of the liberation that is the inheritance waiting to be claimed.
If I understand your question, though, obviously the mass conversions are a political statement rather than a spiritual one. However, I was interested in the comments made by one of the Dalits who said that even though he knew little of Buddhism when he made his conversion, he now considered himself a real Buddhist and that his new religion had had a profound impact on his life. Just taking Refuge does, I would say, impart a blessing on the person who takes it. In fact, it is said that the act of taking Refuge affects one for all successive rebirths. It is the one vow that transcends this life. So I'd say yes, even though they may have little or no idea of what taking Refuge means, it does have a karmic impact. Of course, the ideal scenario is that you understand what you're doing, at least to a certain extent. I think it's a quite clear statement by the Dalits that the caste system is over, and I hope they prevail. Ex cathedra!
Palzang
At first glance, it seems BOTH political and religious. I lived in Boston when the Pope made his first trip to the States (1979), and let me tell you, it was big politics. The newspapers competed on who had the best photo journals, etc. On the face of it, though, it was just people enjoying the day (although it rained cats and dogs.)
Whether one's motivations are political or religious, when you're part of a large group to which you are related by some stong bond, and something new and exciting is happening, it sure is quite the event. It's an upsurge of wondrous proportions. (And, of course, if you're in a competing group you want the rain to be even harder...)
Perhaps what I am saying makes no sense, but it's the only way I know to say it just now.
I'm still having problems with Dukkha....!
Funnily enough, I was having a discussion with someone else a few weeks ago, on another board, who initially, whilst I was trying in my own amateurish and inexperienced manner, to convey my interpretation of the 4 Noble truths, 8Fold Path, etc (by request, I might add...)... was making snide remarks about brainwashing, and propaganda... Fortunately, some good grace prevented me from losing my rag, and I thanked her for her input and contribution, and responded logically to her 'objections'.... at one point, she asked how people convert to Buddhism, and I further explained about taking refuge, not so much a conversion, and so on... and she came back and said, "Ok, I've googled it, and taken refuge, so what's supposed to happen now, a bolt of lightning?"
Well, we discussed that a bit, and moved on from there, then, as most discussions do, it petered out and ended, moving on to other things....and I had a note from her recently to let me know she's actually going on a weekend retreat at a local Buddhist centre near her, and she's truly really interested in it now......
weird, huh?
In Buddhism, as I understand it, the work is within. Nothing comes from without. As a matter of fact, in some Zen traditions it seems that whatever comes from without is mara. (I am on pretty shaky ground here, I realize...people who know more about Buddhism can flesh this out out, but I think you get the point.)
Your friend was looking for the Refuge to be an ex opere operato, but i dont think it works that way on this side of the fence.
The blessing you receive from taking Refuge does not actually have anything to do with opera (isn't that what "ex opere operato" means? :winkc:). The blessing comes from finally, after countless lives of wandering lost in samsara, driven by the winds of karma, taking refuge in the mind of enlightenment, which is beyond samsara, beyond cyclic existence, beyond death and rebirth. In other words, one is taking refuge in one's own Buddhanature, which is birthless, deathless, has always been present and will always be present, rather than taking refuge in samsara, which is what we have been doing for countless millenia and which only results in us being bound to the Wheel of Suffering lifetime after lifetime. That produces in and of itself a profound change in one's karma which will carry over from lifetime to lifetime. So the blessing comes as a result of one's own action, not from some outside deity or whatever.
Does that help?
Palzang
I believe that people often have many misconceptions and distorted views about certain things, especially things that they have very little actually contact or experience with. I think that this is especially true regarding religion and religious practices. Many people tend to allow second hand information about certain subjects to condition they way that they view those subjects. In the West, for example, most people are either raised as Christians or as nothing at all. Hence, when they view other religions, they often already have a certain bias towards them without having any actually experience with their doctrines or practices, and that bias is heavily influenced by things that they might have heard from other Christians or non-religious people who look upon any religion with suspicion. It is no wonder that I had a wrong view of what Buddhism was until I actually took the time to visit a Buddhist temple and saw for myself what Buddhism was really all about. That experience conditioned an immediate interest.
When it comes to Buddhism, people have all kinds of misconception about the act of taking refuge. As the Venerable Thanissaro explains, "Buddhism is not a theistic religion — the Buddha is not a god — and so a person taking refuge in the Buddhist sense is not asking for the Buddha personally to intervene to provide protection. Still, one of the Buddha's central teachings is that human life is fraught with dangers — from greed, anger, and delusion — and so the concept of refuge is central to the path of practice, in that the practice is aimed at gaining release from those dangers. Because the mind is the source both of the dangers and of release, there is a need for two levels of refuge: external refuges, which provide models and guidelines so that we can identify which qualities in the mind lead to danger and which to release; and internal refuges, i.e., the qualities leading to release that we develop in our own mind in imitation of our external models. The internal level is where true refuge is found" (Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Refuge).
I am of mixed feelings when it comes to the mass conversion of people to Buddhism in order to remove themselves from the Hindu caste system. I think that it is good to promote equality, and I believe that things like the caste system are harmful to people because people are treated unfairly. In that sense, I agree with people trying to separate themselves from such a system of discrimination. I also think, however, that while the initial act of taking refuge has certain positive social and benefits, doing so out of wrong view could also have certain negative side effects. As the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu once put it, "If we take refuge under the power of foolishness and superstition, we get an incorrect or foolish Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Only when refuge is taken with sammaditthi or wisdom is the genuine Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Thus, it takes right understanding or wisdom to take refuge with the true Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, just as with dana and sila" (Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, Asalaha-Puja Desana).
Regards,
Jason
"What is within surrounds us"
-Rainer Maria Rilke
So tell me which way is outside & which way is inside. Oh, and don't forget to mention what exactly this inside/outside dichotomy is inside & outside of! Personally, I can't find this supposed thing.
I think that the real difference here is that Christianity (at least the mainstream variety) leaves intact the illusion we consider to be 'ourselves' and is necessarily dualistic for this reason. But regardless of the current forms of christianity want to direct their focus outward, the Man himself said that the Kingdom of Heaven was to be found within. I think the vast majority of Christian mystics have taken just this route. Honestly, this inside/outside distinction is really dependent on what we take as the baseline assumptions of our existential condition. To me, this indicates that the majority of christians are actually quite materialistic, albeit a variety of materialism which gives spiritual phenomena material reality.
Oh and don't forget that there is the pureland tradition there is the reliance on an 'other power', namely the Bodhisattva Vow of Amitabha Buddha.
_/\_
metta
It may be karma that is causing these people so suffer because of a country having a caste system - but even if they're just using buddhism to escape - use away, I say.
It's detestable that a human being is lowered to the state of nothing by just another human being. And how a government can place strictures in place that will keep a person in this type of a condition is beyond detestable. If I weren't a buddhist, I like to kick their asses. But, since I am, I'd like to see someone ELSE kick their asses.
I hate this kind of crap.
-bf
Palzang
I don't judge them at all. I can't imagine what samasara is like for them...
-bf
Here, here, buddhafoot, our friend! I think that people appropriate what they can when they can and might have an infinite number of lifetimes to do so more thoroughly. I think any veneration of THE TRUTH is beautiful, however flawed it might be. Let's not discount the Offerings of others, and try to discern the value of our own meagre offering.
Best of Regards to you, buddhafoot. Have you been on vacation?
I agree that it is difficult to judge another person's motives, and even though I was talking about those who convert in order to remove themselves from the Hindu caste system and nothing more, I realize that there are a lot of those that are seriously interested in the Dhamma besides being free from the oppressive caste system. Either way, I wish them the best because I just want to see people suffer less.
Regards,
Jason
Great Thread, great subject! Maybe I'm crazier than I even think, but the idea of starting out afresh, anew with a different philosophy or religion seems a positive thing.
There are some really deep thoughts being expressed here and I, for one, am gonna keep tuned in.
It's kind of like I used to tell our paranoid patients when I worked at a psych hospital, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean people aren't out to get you! Maybe that's why I no longer work there...
And as for bf, so nice to see you back on the board again! I miss the cat...
I agree, Jason, anything that would result in less suffering for these poor unfortunates in India would be wonderful. Has anyone here read the Buddha manga series by Osamu Tezuka (no, not Osama bin Laden!)? They're wonderful, and I highly recommend them. Anyway, the reason I bring it up is that he really gives you a sense of what it's like to live in the bottom of the caste system in India. It really tears your heart out.
Palzang
Hey Nervana...
Have I been on vacation?
No...
Life has just been a bitch lately.
A real bitch.
I did just get an email from Genryu that I responded to, but never heard nothing back.
Damn.
-bf
Thanks, Pally.
I haven't been in a place to contribute much lately.
Still might not be.
-bf
It is good to see that you are still around, dear friend, but sad to hear that life is being a female dog! Let us hope that she drops a fine litter of delightful pups and becomes motherly again.
But only if you feel it might help.
And I'm not even necessarily nominating myself as the best person you might want to speak to.
Just know, as with all and everything, we're your buddies here, distance notwithstanding...
Hugs, always.
Sorry to hear that. Like Fede said, if any of us can help, please feel free to ask. I miss your contribution to this board. You always bring a nice, grounded sanity to the fray that I like very much.
Palzang
I've certainly been there a few times. Do what you gotta do (or not do).
metta
_/\_
Purely superficial action.
Many of those dalits reconvert or are treated as dalits in the christian, islamic, sikh etc. religions of India.