Beyond Mindfulness

Chaz

An interesting piece over on HuffPost ....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-purser/beyond-mcmindfulness_b_3519289.html

Invincible_summer

... Corporations have jumped on the mindfulness bandwagon because it conveniently shifts the burden onto the individual employee: stress is framed as a personal problem, and mindfulness is offered as just the right medicine to help employees work more efficiently and calmly within toxic environments. Cloaked in an aura of care and humanity, mindfulness is refashioned into a safety valve, as a way to let off steam -- a technique for coping with and adapting to the stresses and strains of corporate life.

My initial reaction was "damn... that's sinister!"

Now, I'm thinking... isn't that one use of meditation? To observe reality as it is, and if there's some stress-reduction as a bonus, why not? If I work better in a toxic environment, then I work better in a toxic environment; if the environment is no longer seemingly "toxic" to me because of a meditation practice, who's to say I'm now a "docile cow?"

DairyLama

I'm dubious generally about the benefits of mindfulness based stress reduction, because when mindfulness is practised superficially it could just lead to a greater awareness of stress and negative states of mind....which would be even more stresssful.

EvenThird

@SpinyNorman - I've heard that mindfulness meditation/stress-reduction techniques can actually be harmful to people in certain cases. They might be surprised to encounter negativity, considering that often secular stress reduction meditation/mindfulness has the impression of being peaceful and relaxing.

Chaz

I think, if you're going to do MBSR, you should do so under the guidance of someone qualified to mentor the practice. Too many times, people haul off and do meditation practice all on their own without and guidance or instruction. They can hit it right, or more often, do it completely wrong, or the can end up in a psychic disaster area.

It kind of like if you don't know how to use a chain saw and don't learn how to use one correctly, don't be surprised if you accidently cut off your own leg.

Any tool can be helpful or harmful. I depends entirely on how it's used.

That said, I think mindfullness practices can do a great deal in the way of reducing stress and generally speaking improve overall emotional balance. BUT..... this is not what meditation is for, in my mind. The benefits I mention are by-products of a regular and strong practice.

I think it kinda sad that meditation practice is becoming a product.

DairyLama

Chaz said:

I think, if you're going to do MBSR, you should do so under the guidance of someone qualified to mentor the practice.

I agree, but I haven't been all that impressed by the MBSR practitioners I've come across.
And going back to the OP, what if somebody is being bullied by their boss? Is MBSR really going to help them, or would they be better off with some assertive training or a chat with the union rep., or whatever?

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

I agree, but I haven't been all that impressed by the MBSR practitioners I've come across.

Really? Well I'm sure that's important.

Flu shots are supposed to prevent the flu, but you still get the flu. Vaccine must be worthless.

And going back to the OP, what if somebody is being bullied by their boss? Is MBSR really going to help them,

Sure! It may not curb the bullying but then it isn't Bullying Relief. Just stress.

or would they be better off with some assertive training or a chat with the union rep., or whatever?

Or hiring a lawyer, or wait .... they can quit and find a new job, too.

DairyLama

Chaz said:

SpinyNorman said:

...or would they be better off with some assertive training or a chat with the union rep., or whatever?

Or hiring a lawyer, or wait .... they can quit and find a new job, too.

As it happens I used to be a union rep., and I dealt with some cases of bullying by managers. The worst thing you can do in these situations is blame the victim and make it their problem.

DairyLama

Chaz said:

SpinyNorman said:

I agree, but I haven't been all that impressed by the MBSR practitioners I've come across.

Flu shots are supposed to prevent the flu, but you still get the flu. Vaccine must be worthless.

Obviously people who are involved in promoting MBSR and hoping to make a living from it are going to say it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'm just saying that I haven't been very impressed with what I've seen on the ground.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

Obviously people who are involved in promoting MBSR and hoping to make a living from it are going to say it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'm just saying that I haven't been very impressed with what I've seen on the ground.

And I've seen quite the opposite.

My experience practicing Shamatha, which is what a lot of MBSR uis based on, is nothing but positive in this regard.

I'm able to reduce my blood pressure (a good indicator of stress) by roughly 15% in less than 5 minutes simply by doing Shamatha (it's been clinically demonstrated). My average BP has reduced considerably over the last 5 years without medication and my doctor attibutes this to my meditation practice (because nothing else has changed). My wife believes I'm calmer, less distracted, happier, I sleep more soundly and peacefully since beginning practice.

And I'm not the only one. I know a lot of Buddhists who have similar experience. None of them have actually taken courses in MBSR, although one of those friends is a noted (locally) MBSR instructor. They just do their practice and stress reduction is a by-product.

I also think that observing a Buddhist subject for signs of stress can be a good idicator of strength of practice.

So yeah, it works. It benefits beings. It really does. You may remain skeptical as you see fit.

Invincible_summer

Relevant: http://www.businessinsider.com/chip-wilson-lululemon-meditation-whil-2013-10

More commodification of spirituality.

DairyLama

Chaz said:

SpinyNorman said:

Obviously people who are involved in promoting MBSR and hoping to make a living from it are going to say it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'm just saying that I haven't been very impressed with what I've seen on the ground.

My experience practicing Shamatha, which is what a lot of MBSR uis based on, is nothing but positive in this regard.

I think samatha is very beneficial, no argument there. MBSR is actually based on the 4 foundations of mindfulness ( Satipatthana Sutta ), but IMO it's often communicated without the depth of understanding and experience required to apply these effectively.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

I think samatha is very beneficial, no argument there. MBSR is actually based on the 4 foundations of mindfulness ( Satipatthana Sutta ), but IMO it's often communicated without the depth of understanding and experience required to apply these effectively.

Really? Who communicates this without the depth you'd like to see?

DairyLama

Chaz said:

SpinyNorman said:

I think samatha is very beneficial, no argument there. MBSR is actually based on the 4 foundations of mindfulness ( Satipatthana Sutta ), but IMO it's often communicated without the depth of understanding and experience required to apply these effectively.

Really? Who communicates this without the depth you'd like to see?

MBSR practitioners that I've met. I don't doubt that they are well-intentioned, the problem is that mindfulness is a challenging practice which takes years to develop, not something you can learn on a short course.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

Chaz said:

SpinyNorman said:

I think samatha is very beneficial, no argument there. MBSR is actually based on the 4 foundations of mindfulness ( Satipatthana Sutta ), but IMO it's often communicated without the depth of understanding and experience required to apply these effectively.

Really? Who communicates this without the depth you'd like to see?

MBSR practitioners that I've met.

Cool! Who are these people ? How many are you speaking of? Who did they get their MBSR training from/through?

I don't doubt that they are well-intentioned, the problem is that mindfulness is a challenging practice which takes years to develop, not something you can learn on a short course.

Your previous posts suggest that you're expecting more out of them, than you're now willing to settle for. A double standard if you will. You seem to base your negative opinion of MBSR on a certain number of individuals who don't offer example you expect. Then you backpedal, saying that it takes a lot of time to develop depth. So you seem to condemn in one post and excuse in another.

What do you expect from these people, siddhis?

I'd also like to know why you're basing your opinion on people who don't have the depth of experience you require? Have you spoken with someone qualified to instruct others in this flavor of mindfullness practice?

DairyLama

Chaz said:

Have you spoken with someone qualified to instruct others in this flavor of mindfullness practice?

Yes, I have - like I said. They'd been on the course and had some theoretical understanding, but it became clear that they weren't practising mindfulness themselves on a regular basis, so their experience of the practice was actually quite limited. I've had some experience myself of introducing people to mindfulness in a Buddhist context, and IMO it's very difficult to communicate this stuff effectively without a solid personal practice.

Chaz

cool! But you still base your opinion on what you get from people who, expectedly, don't have the depth you require. Curious.

DairyLama

Chaz said:

cool! But you still base your opinion on what you get from people who, expectedly, don't have the depth you require. Curious.

I'm just saying what I've experienced.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

Chaz said:

cool! But you still base your opinion on what you get from people who, expectedly, don't have the depth you require. Curious.

I'm just saying what I've experienced.

Of course, but you're applying it selectively. You say you've spoken with someone who's qualified to instruct or inform you, but disregard that when voicing an opinion here, based on sources that by your own declared expectations don't meet your requirements.

It's almost like you'd prefer to base an opinion based solely on negative experience when positive is readily available.

You're also, apparently, unwilling to validate it for yourself. You've had at least one opportunity to get a little instruction, so you can try it for yourself. Yet you will not avail .....

Curious.

DairyLama

Chaz said:

You're also, apparently, unwilling to validate it for yourself. You've had at least one opportunity to get a little instruction, so you can try it for yourself.

Actually I went on an MBSR taster day, so I've had a bit of instruction. You seem to very critical of my posts, which is also curious.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

Chaz said:

You're also, apparently, unwilling to validate it for yourself. You've had at least one opportunity to get a little instruction, so you can try it for yourself.

Actually I went on an MBSR taster day, so I've had a bit of instruction. You seem to very critical of my posts, which is also curious.

Well it seemed kinda weak.

You said, and a I paraphrase, that you don't think much of MBSR and that this is based on exposure to people who didn't impress. Fair enough, but then you backpedal a bit saying that these contacts can't be expected to have sufficient depth, even though your opinion is based on their having depth. Then you say you've had contact with qualified instruction but still, for some reason, choose to stand by an opinion based on people who don't have the depth to be good/any example.

What it is, here, Spiney, is simply not being willing to take your word at face-value, especially when there doesn't seem to be anything of substance behind it

DairyLama

Chaz said:

What it is, here, Spiney, is simply not being willing to take your word at face-value, especially when there doesn't seem to be anything of substance behind it

Like I said, I'm talking from experience, which, to paraphrase, is that the MBSR practitioners I've met don't have a solid personal practice of mindfulness and therefore find it difficult to communicate mindfulness effectively.

Anyway, instead of the continual nit-picking, why don't you tell us about your personal experience and knowledge of MBSR?

Chaz

I think I've already done that, but seeing as you asked ......

I work in a profession that tends to be very stressfull

I've been doing Shamatha/Vipassana practice for about 12 years now. This meditation technique is oftentimes the basis of MBSR training.

Although I've recieved only minimal instruction in using mindfulness techniques as a means of stress reduction, I find that my practice still contributes greatly to overall stress reduction as well as episodic stresses as well.

As I said before ....

I'm able to reduce my blood pressure by roughly 15% in less than 10 minutes via mediation. This has been observed clinically.

My average blood pressure has dropped considerably. My doctor agrees that this is probably due to regular meditation practice - nothing else in my lifestyle has changed that would cause a lowering of average blood pressure and at my age the only other thing that would lower my blood pressure, apart from medication, is death. Last time I checked, I was still alive.

I tend to be more relaxed, have a better overall disposition, sleep more soundly and generally a lot happier. This is input from my wife who has been observing my shit for over 20 years.

The most stress-free people I know are meditators.

So, in my mind, MBSR can be an effective tool for people who experience high stress in their lives. It's not a silver bullet - it won't help everyone - but the idea behind MBSR is still sound. Meditation causes stress reduction and it can be taught, without religious trapping as an aid to people dealing with the stresses so prevelent in everyday life.

I'd love to take a proper class, just to see how what they teach follows my experience and perhaps gain a bit more insight. Sadly and even though there are several highly qualified teachers, it seems that their classes are all offered at local Shambhala centers and that tends to be a bit rich for my blood :-(

If I nit pick, it's because my experience is so drastically different from what yours appears to be, and I'm curious as to why that is.

To bring it back to my OP, this isn't really about how and why, but rather, about what apprears to be the productization of meditation as a self-help technique, neatly packaged for a broad demographic. Call me old-school, but I don't know how comfortable I am with that sort of thing. I don't meditate to reduce stress. I meditate to connect with the nature of mind. If I gain health benefits from that practice, it's a by-product, and not an end in itself. I like it that way.

How do you feel about that? Do you like the idea of meditation bundled into a product like one of those late-night excercise infomercials?

DairyLama

Chaz said:

How do you feel about that? Do you like the idea of meditation bundled into a product like one of those late-night excercise infomercials?

I think it's an inevitable trend in a consumer society where everything ends up as a product to be bought and sold.
My reservation, as I've said, is whether the practitioners of such "products" really have the experience required - particularly those who don't have a previous background in meditation and mindfulness.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

My reservation, as I've said, is whether the practitioners of such "products" really have the experience required - particularly those who don't have a previous background in meditation and mindfulness.

What sort of requirements should these folks meet?

Example: In my tradition you just can't walk into a center and start Ngondro practice. The prerequisits are pretty specific.

Refuge Vows
Bodhisattva Vows
Formal teaching relationship with Rinpoche
Completetion of foundation and Mahayana curriculum
Permision of Practice Instructor
Permission of Sangha's head of Practice
Rinpoche's permission
etc.

Those sorts of requirements?

I'm all for it, actually, but a lot of people bristle over anything that restricts their personal freedom. Esoteric practices put some people off and by requring that certain practice/study oportunities be restricted schmecks of "secret" teaching.

What do you think?

DairyLama

Chaz said:

What sort of requirements should these folks meet?

It's not for me to say, but IMO if somebody hasn't had a solid personal mindfulness practice for a period of time, then I struggle to see how they're going to communicate it effectively.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

Chaz said:

What sort of requirements should these folks meet?

It's not for me to say, but IMO if somebody hasn't had a solid personal mindfulness practice for a period of time, then I struggle to see how they're going to communicate it effectively.

If it important for a "practitioner" to communicate, effectively, what they've been taught, then we're all in a peck of trouble, whouldn't you say?

DairyLama

Chaz said:

SpinyNorman said:

Chaz said:

What sort of requirements should these folks meet?

It's not for me to say, but IMO if somebody hasn't had a solid personal mindfulness practice for a period of time, then I struggle to see how they're going to communicate it effectively.

If it important for a "practitioner" to communicate, effectively, what they've been taught, then we're all in a peck of trouble, whouldn't you say?

Sure, though in this context I was meaning people who teach MBSR. From what I've seen it would be equivalent to somebody going on a meditation retreat to learn a meditation technique, then setting up as a meditation teacher to make some money without having developed a solid personal meditation practice.

footiam

Invincible_summer said:

... Corporations have jumped on the mindfulness bandwagon because it conveniently shifts the burden onto the individual employee: stress is framed as a personal problem, and mindfulness is offered as just the right medicine to help employees work more efficiently and calmly within toxic environments. Cloaked in an aura of care and humanity, mindfulness is refashioned into a safety valve, as a way to let off steam -- a technique for coping with and adapting to the stresses and strains of corporate life.

My initial reaction was "damn... that's sinister!"

Now, I'm thinking... isn't that one use of meditation? To observe reality as it is, and if there's some stress-reduction as a bonus, why not? If I work better in a toxic environment, then I work better in a toxic environment; if the environment is no longer seemingly "toxic" to me because of a meditation practice, who's to say I'm now a "docile cow?"

Not a 'docile cow' but a lotus growing out of the mud.

DairyLama

footiam said:

Not a 'docile cow' but a lotus growing out of the mud.

Cows are nice too.