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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
... nor have I implied that everything is caused by everything else.
You don't seem to know what you believe.
Let's see here... You said that being caused by everything is the same as being caused by nothing. I asked how that made sense.
After that you haven't made sense at all but have been evasive. I only asked a question and didn't assert either scenario. Depending on and causing are two different things.
If you don't feel like answering, there's no harm.
... nor have I implied that everything is caused by everything else.
You don't seem to know what you believe.
Let's see here... You said that being caused by everything is the same as being caused by nothing. I asked how that made sense.
After that you haven't made sense at all but have been evasive.
Au contrair, mon ami, I put it quite simply with the Jack & Jill nursery rhyme. What could be simpler than a nursery rhyme?! Okay, let's go over it again...
Jack and Jill went up the hill To fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown, And Jill came tumbling after.
Whether Jack thinks that everything caused the breaking of his crown, or nothing caused the breaking of his crown, it makes no difference. He's doomed to repeat the mistake either way (should he and Jill go up the hill to fetch a pail of water). DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
... nor have I implied that everything is caused by everything else.
You don't seem to know what you believe.
Let's see here... You said that being caused by everything is the same as being caused by nothing. I asked how that made sense.
After that you haven't made sense at all but have been evasive.
Au contrair, mon ami, I put it quite simply with the Jack & Jill nursery rhyme. What could be simpler than a nursery rhyme?! Okay, let's go over it again...
Jack and Jill went up the hill To fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown, And Jill came tumbling after.
Whether Jack thinks that everything caused the breaking of his crown, or nothing caused the breaking of his crown, it makes no difference. He's doomed to repeat the mistake either way (should he and Jill go up the hill to fetch a pail of water). DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Depending on and causing are two different things.
How so? (this is key)
It seems pretty simple. If this is not what you are getting at, then I don't understand.
Jack is a fool if he thinks that nothing caused the fall. Or, Jack may think that he fell down because of bad luck, or because it was God's will. He may ask a fortune teller to predict the best day to go for water. Or, he may pray to God to allow him to get water without being harmed. And then march right back up there If Jack examines the circumstances of his accident with insight, he will understand the causes. As far back as he cares to look. Realistically, he only needs to know the immediate causes. Maybe the ground was slippery that day. Or the bucket was too heavy. He may wear better shoes next time. A mindful Jack will not repeat the mistake.
If Jack thinks that everything caused the fall, he won't try it again. It can't be done.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Au contrair, mon ami, I put it quite simply with the Jack & Jill nursery rhyme. What could be simpler than a nursery rhyme?! Okay, let's go over it again...
Jack and Jill went up the hill To fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown, And Jill came tumbling after. Whether Jack thinks that everything caused the breaking of his crown, or nothing caused the breaking of his crown, it makes no difference. He's doomed to repeat the mistake either way (should he and Jill go up the hill to fetch a pail of water). DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
So no matter what Jack does, he will break his crown if he goes for water?
This is your answer? This is why being caused by everything is the same as being caused by nothing?
I'd imagine Jack knows that if he was more careful he could have avoided the fall. It isn't rocket science.
If you had said that being caused by everything is the same as having no one specific cause I would have known what you were going for but there is no such thing as nothing.
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Indras web is a great analogy but if I slip on a banana peel, it won't cause a flood in Europe.
A chain of causes lead up to any event but try it out of sequence and specific causes.become apparent.
That's pretty much true, but have you heard of chaos theory where a butterflies wings can cause (in part) a weather system to change? I don't believe there is one cause to anything, rather it had a chain. The titanic sank because of an iceberg. The captain caused it by stearing. The captain had an education and perhaps was drinking the night before... etcc.... Everything having a more distal cause.
Au contrair, mon ami, I put it quite simply with the Jack & Jill nursery rhyme. What could be simpler than a nursery rhyme?! Okay, let's go over it again...
Jack and Jill went up the hill To fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown, And Jill came tumbling after. Whether Jack thinks that everything caused the breaking of his crown, or nothing caused the breaking of his crown, it makes no difference. He's doomed to repeat the mistake either way (should he and Jill go up the hill to fetch a pail of water). DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
So no matter what Jack does, he will break his crown if he goes for water?
As stated several times, there's no difference between everything causing something and nothing causing something. It makes no difference if Jack thinks that everything causes his crown to break, or nothing causes his crown to break. The outcome is the same, Jack is stuck in his head and out of touch with the real world. He needs to forget the religious dogma and investigate the causes that he can do something about.
This is why being caused by everything is the same as being caused by nothing?
Essentially, cuz religious dogma is often quite impractical. But then it's not meant to be practical. It's only needs to be meaningful.
Au contrair, mon ami, I put it quite simply with the Jack & Jill nursery rhyme. What could be simpler than a nursery rhyme?! Okay, let's go over it again...
Jack and Jill went up the hill To fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown, And Jill came tumbling after. Whether Jack thinks that everything caused the breaking of his crown, or nothing caused the breaking of his crown, it makes no difference. He's doomed to repeat the mistake either way (should he and Jill go up the hill to fetch a pail of water). DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
So no matter what Jack does, he will break his crown if he goes for water?
As stated several times, there's no difference between everything causing something and nothing causing something. It makes no difference if Jack thinks that everything causes his crown to break, or nothing causes his crown to break. The outcome is the same, Jack is stuck in his head and out of touch with the real world. He needs to forget the religious dogma and investigate the causes that he can do something about.
This is why being caused by everything is the same as being caused by nothing?
Essentially, cuz religious dogma is often quite impractical. But then it's not meant to be practical. It's only needs to be meaningful.
Indras web is a great analogy but if I slip on a banana peel, it won't cause a flood in Europe.
But please be careful, just in case...
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
As stated several times, there's no difference between everything causing something and nothing causing something. It makes no difference if Jack thinks that everything causes his crown to break, or nothing causes his crown to break. The outcome is the same, Jack is stuck in his head and out of touch with the real world. He needs to forget the religious dogma and investigate the causes that he can do something about.
You're still not making any sense whatsoever. You may as well claim that to go up a ladder is the same as going down a ladder. Maybe ice will melt steel. Hey, light is now dark and wet is dry. It's a topsy-turvey world you got going on where everything is the same as nothing.
Maybe my typing this sentence caused Buddha to awaken in Sidhartha. It must have played a part if we go by your logic. That sentence is part of everything.
If I was you, I wouldn't worry about Jack.
Essentially, cuz religious dogma is often quite impractical. But then it's not meant to be practical. It's only needs to be meaningful.
Sorry but I don't see meaning or practicality in your dogma. Maybe you should start over but without pretending to know what fictional characters have going on in their heads.
When you make extra-ordinary claims, nursery rhymes rarely help prove anything... Just a heads up.
And once again, saying that there is no one cause for any event or thing/process is not the same as saying nothing is the cause.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
In @ourself 's defence, it has taken you half a dozen posts to start making any sense.
Also, why do you believe that Jack has not learned anything?
He's started to make sense?
Well, he arrived at his point at least.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited November 2013
If every thing/event/process is caused by various causes then the cause is the chain of causation that leads to said event/process.
Not everything and certainly not some magic "nothing", but a distinct series of events.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
As stated several times, there's no difference between everything causing something and nothing causing something. It makes no difference if Jack thinks that everything causes his crown to break, or nothing causes his crown to break. The outcome is the same
Do you think there is no difference because neither scenario makes any sense and besides, what is done is done?
If that is what you're saying I can agree but not sure why you wouldn't just say that instead of using a nursery rhyme... Because that also makes no sense.
If you are actually saying that everything is the same as nothing then I'll have to leave you at that because there's no more to say than what I've said already.
As stated several times, there's no difference between everything causing something and nothing causing something. It makes no difference if Jack thinks that everything causes his crown to break, or nothing causes his crown to break. The outcome is the same
Do you think there is no difference because neither scenario makes any sense and besides, what is done is done? As previously stated, religion doesn't need to make sense. It only needs to be meaningful.
If that is what you're saying I can agree but not sure why you wouldn't just say that instead of using a nursery rhyme... Because that also makes no sense.
Indeed, a nursery rhyme doesn't need to make any more sense than religious "Truths."
If you are actually saying that everything is the same as nothing then I'll have to leave you at that because there's no more to say than what I've said already.
Again, practically speaking, everything is the same as nothing.
What you need to understand is that causality is an illusion. We single out causes for things that suit our purposes, and then only the causes that are most practical or what we can actually do something about.
What caused Jack's crown to break? Indeed, everything. What is Jack capable of doing about it? Indeed, all but nothing, relatively (relative to everything) speaking.
Relative to everything, Jack, and us, are like tiny fish in a fishbowl. We can't see beyond our little fish bowl and our little fishy needs and our little fishy purposes.
Indras web is a great analogy but if I slip on a banana peel, it won't cause a flood in Europe.
prove it.
So I really like this discussion, because causality is something valuable to investigate! Explore the options, just don't get personally heated about it. Use your reasoning and don't worry if your view is wrong or has holes, that's what discussion is for. The Buddha challenged his disciples' understandings all the time to make sure they had the clear view.
That said, don't just argue for sake of arguing. We should be kind and open-hearted to our fellows in the spiritual community, and those with interest.
I've read on this forum a few times the process of going from "little i" to "great I" (where one honors all beings with the name "I" and begins to understand their flesh as one's own) -- this process is incredibly valuable (roots in Shantideva's great work The Way of the Bodhisattva) and I would encourage everyone to try it on. This is an immediate and very practical application of the understanding that there is not a barrier between "me" and "you" other than the one made by habitual tendency..
so grind habit down with habit! healthy ones! I had a dream I met a man wearing a nametag that read "Karma Positive"
And please, be kind! ^_^ it is just words on a page, but they can be sharper than blades. So be real, there are people behind these screens and interfaces. Emotional Intelligence please please double please.
So kind of you @sova, to imply that we are emotionally stupid. :buck:
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Religion for me needs to make sense because nonsensical positions are not meaningful unless they produce abstraction. Besides, weren't you the one trying to rid the discussion of religious dogma?
Nursey rhymes don't need to make sense unless they are being used as examples for real life events.
Again, practically speaking, everything is the same as nothing.
I disagree and figure we have different takes on what it means to be practical.
What you need to understand is that causality is an illusion. We single out causes for things that suit our purposes, and then only the causes that are most practical or what we can actually do something about.
You are speaking for yourself here... If the purpose is to see what causes what then only a direct cause will suit said purpose. It has nothing to do with being able to do anything about it except maybe learn.
What caused Jack's crown to break? Indeed, everything. What is Jack capable of doing about it? Indeed, all but nothing, relatively (relative to everything) speaking.
So this sentence helped cause an imaginary persons crown to break... I admit it makes more sense than a magic nothing but still...
Relative to everything, Jack, and us, are like tiny fish in a fishbowl. We can't see beyond our little fish bowl and our little fishy needs and our little fishy purposes.
Then how could you possibly even hazard a guess as to the workings beyond your little bowl?
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Samantrabhadra is the Buddha body of just what is. The union of skillful means and emptiness. Awareness does not distinguish self and other so distinctions are just what is present. The chariot is just a chariot. Of course an axle is also just an axle. When we decide to be our self we separate out a person who is not other. This is what is empty of inherent existence. Of course you are here and so is the chariot. Nirvana is just Samsara without the view from a self which doesn't really exist-a self which is not also the other. Making nothing of the world is not the great vehicle. The world is perfect and our separate selves are perfect but the imaginary constructs of self and other consumes our awareness in self cherishing excursions. Who is the watcher?
Only Me
Come now child and we shall see What your art has come to be. Out upon some vision dancing, dwells a light all self entrancing and a moderator prancing, just a watcher-only me.
Come now child and we'll envision. Seek the truth without revision, let the light shine on in splendor, that as a wise man you might render all you see, as some sooth vendor, for a watcher-only me.
Come now child, don't tell the story of your illumined road to glory ere the light fade in illusion or your view become delusion in some sordid self confusion of the watcher-only me.
Come now child and calmly sit here. Let the light be, that it draw near. Let your nature dwell in silence. Let the quiet be your penance that you purify and entrance the fabled watcher-only me.
Or, to paraphrase Thich Nhat Nanh and go the other direction, don't see a book as just paper. See in it the tree, the sun, the rain, the winds, the seasons, the clouds and all that it took to make the paper and then see the thoughts, the work, the ink, the printer, the binder, the transporter, the seller that it took to put the book in your hands.
This is old in the entire thread and even though I am not too familiar with Tich Nhat Nanh's teachings I can relate to this. I once realised after a talk by a Nun something, without the rain there can be no trees, without trees there can be no oxygen, without the oxygen there can be no life, whatsoever, things die and devay and resort back to the Earth. At the end of the day, everything physical will return to Earth, Wind, Water and Fire.
I also realised something the other day, that at the start of this current universe we happen to be in, or the one that we think we are in anyway, HUGE stars were forming out of stardust or clouds in space, these subsequently fused together and started to form such things as carbon, potassium, calcium etc. So EVERYTHING comes from that point, where HUGE stars were being born and dying quickly (a few million years).
I think one can get too lost into thinking in the way you are entering OP, it is what it is.. Take a step back and observe it with the mind that observes the mind. It is all very simple yet we for some reason make it way too complex.
The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately
conveyed from west to east.
Among human beings are wise ones and fools,
But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.
The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary
streams flow through the darkness.
To be attached to things is illusion;
To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.
Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,
and at the same time, independent.
Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.
Form makes the character and appearance different;
Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.
The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.
The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.
Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.
Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.
Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality
Like leaves that come from the same root.
The words high and low are used relatively.
Within light there is darkness, but do not try to understand that darkness;
Within darkness there is light, but do not look for that light.
Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before
and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value
and is related to everything else in function and position.
Ordinary life fits the absolute as a box and its lid.
The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air.
Reading words you should grasp the great reality. Do not judge by any standards.
If you do not see the Way, you do not see it even as you walk on it.
When you walk the Way, it is not near, it is not far.
If you are deluded, you are mountains and rivers away from it.
I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:
Do not waste your time by night or day.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I think that I'd prefer a not so miserable religion. Just say'n
Well Nevermind: Seeing suffering of others does cause suffering in self. Interestingly I have suffered very little over the past 40 years or so-because of my own misfortune. But, seeing the suffering of others is an ever present reminder of the 4 noble truths. So, suffering is a matter of viewpoint and care. Good luck in your search. mtgby
catalyze? I think it sounds like the relative things are seamless with the ultimate. The two truths are a union in the Buddha's eyes. There is something in my sanghas liturgy but unfortunately I can't remember it exactly. Something like "when awareness meets it's mother pure reality".
"The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air"
Can someone please catalyze this for me?
"Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them."
Ajahn Chah wrote: Some people will hear the words, ''Nothing is mine,'' and they will get the idea they should throw away all their possessions. With only superficial understanding, people will get into arguments about what this means and how to apply it. ''This is not my self,'' doesn't mean you should end your life or throw away your possessions. It means you should give up attachment. There is the level of conventional reality and the level of ultimate reality - supposition and liberation. On the level of convention, there is Mr. A, Mrs. B, Mr. M., Mrs. N. and so on. We use these suppositions for convenience in communicating and functioning in the world. The Buddha did not teach that we shouldn't use these things, but that we shouldn't be attached to them. We should realize that they are empty. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Dhamma_Goes_Westward.php
catalyze? I think it sounds like the relative things are seamless with the ultimate. The two truths are a union in the Buddha's eyes. There is something in my sanghas liturgy but unfortunately I can't remember it exactly. Something like "when awareness meets it's mother pure reality".
"The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air"
Can someone please catalyze this for me?
Well I wrote a comment earlier, something about a cup and the soup. Anyway I would say more like a bow and an arrow. In the Vedic hymns it talks about the mind needing the breath and visa versa. What good is a soup cup without soup? What is awareness without an object? Answer: The Dharmadathu. But an object allows us to develop Bodhicitta and develop our Buddha nature so I see some catalyst there-ok? mtgby
Comments
After that you haven't made sense at all but have been evasive. I only asked a question and didn't assert either scenario. Depending on and causing are two different things.
If you don't feel like answering, there's no harm.
Interdependencedendcedeneedencedededecendent... - where was I, oh yes!
Time to come back to reality, with an understanding of divisiveness that makes you whole again. But a breakdown inevitably occurs again.
Mettha
It seems pretty simple.
If this is not what you are getting at, then I don't understand.
Jack is a fool if he thinks that nothing caused the fall.
Or, Jack may think that he fell down because of bad luck, or because it was God's will.
He may ask a fortune teller to predict the best day to go for water.
Or, he may pray to God to allow him to get water without being harmed.
And then march right back up there
If Jack examines the circumstances of his accident with insight, he will understand the causes. As far back as he cares to look.
Realistically, he only needs to know the immediate causes.
Maybe the ground was slippery that day. Or the bucket was too heavy.
He may wear better shoes next time.
A mindful Jack will not repeat the mistake.
If Jack thinks that everything caused the fall, he won't try it again. It can't be done.
This is your answer? This is why being caused by everything is the same as being caused by nothing?
I'd imagine Jack knows that if he was more careful he could have avoided the fall. It isn't rocket science.
If you had said that being caused by everything is the same as having no one specific cause I would have known what you were going for but there is no such thing as nothing. How so? (this is key)
Everything depends on the interconnectedness of everything else for causation to work but at the same time every thing has a specific cause.
A chain of causes lead up to any event but try it out of sequence and specific causes.become apparent.
This is your answer?
Answer to what, @ourself ?
As stated several times, there's no difference between everything causing something and nothing causing something. It makes no difference if Jack thinks that everything causes his crown to break, or nothing causes his crown to break. The outcome is the same, Jack is stuck in his head and out of touch with the real world. He needs to forget the religious dogma and investigate the causes that he can do something about. Essentially, cuz religious dogma is often quite impractical. But then it's not meant to be practical. It's only needs to be meaningful. Oh my gentle Jesus! Do yourself a favor and put some more thought into this.
As stated several times, there's no difference between everything causing something and nothing causing something. It makes no difference if Jack thinks that everything causes his crown to break, or nothing causes his crown to break. The outcome is the same, Jack is stuck in his head and out of touch with the real world. He needs to forget the religious dogma and investigate the causes that he can do something about. Essentially, cuz religious dogma is often quite impractical. But then it's not meant to be practical. It's only needs to be meaningful. Oh my gentle Jesus! Do yourself a favor and put some more thought into this.
In @ourself 's defence, it has taken you half a dozen posts to start making any sense.
Also, why do you believe that Jack has not learned anything?
Maybe my typing this sentence caused Buddha to awaken in Sidhartha. It must have played a part if we go by your logic. That sentence is part of everything.
If I was you, I wouldn't worry about Jack. Sorry but I don't see meaning or practicality in your dogma. Maybe you should start over but without pretending to know what fictional characters have going on in their heads.
When you make extra-ordinary claims, nursery rhymes rarely help prove anything... Just a heads up.
And once again, saying that there is no one cause for any event or thing/process is not the same as saying nothing is the cause.
Well, he arrived at his point at least.
Not everything and certainly not some magic "nothing", but a distinct series of events.
If that is what you're saying I can agree but not sure why you wouldn't just say that instead of using a nursery rhyme... Because that also makes no sense.
If you are actually saying that everything is the same as nothing then I'll have to leave you at that because there's no more to say than what I've said already.
As previously stated, religion doesn't need to make sense. It only needs to be meaningful. Indeed, a nursery rhyme doesn't need to make any more sense than religious "Truths." Again, practically speaking, everything is the same as nothing.
What you need to understand is that causality is an illusion. We single out causes for things that suit our purposes, and then only the causes that are most practical or what we can actually do something about.
What caused Jack's crown to break? Indeed, everything. What is Jack capable of doing about it? Indeed, all but nothing, relatively (relative to everything) speaking.
Relative to everything, Jack, and us, are like tiny fish in a fishbowl. We can't see beyond our little fish bowl and our little fishy needs and our little fishy purposes.
So I really like this discussion, because causality is something valuable to investigate! Explore the options, just don't get personally heated about it. Use your reasoning and don't worry if your view is wrong or has holes, that's what discussion is for. The Buddha challenged his disciples' understandings all the time to make sure they had the clear view.
That said, don't just argue for sake of arguing. We should be kind and open-hearted to our fellows in the spiritual community, and those with interest.
I've read on this forum a few times the process of going from "little i" to "great I" (where one honors all beings with the name "I" and begins to understand their flesh as one's own) -- this process is incredibly valuable (roots in Shantideva's great work The Way of the Bodhisattva) and I would encourage everyone to try it on. This is an immediate and very practical application of the understanding that there is not a barrier between "me" and "you" other than the one made by habitual tendency..
so grind habit down with habit! healthy ones! I had a dream I met a man wearing a nametag that read "Karma Positive"
And please, be kind! ^_^ it is just words on a page, but they can be sharper than blades. So be real, there are people behind these screens and interfaces. Emotional Intelligence please please double please.
Religion for me needs to make sense because nonsensical positions are not meaningful unless they produce abstraction. Besides, weren't you the one trying to rid the discussion of religious dogma?
Nursey rhymes don't need to make sense unless they are being used as examples for real life events. I disagree and figure we have different takes on what it means to be practical. You are speaking for yourself here... If the purpose is to see what causes what then only a direct cause will suit said purpose. It has nothing to do with being able to do anything about it except maybe learn. So this sentence helped cause an imaginary persons crown to break... I admit it makes more sense than a magic nothing but still... Then how could you possibly even hazard a guess as to the workings beyond your little bowl?
I'm not trying to be rude or anything and I agree with your post.
When being empty is confused for being nothing I like to pipe up is all.
Only Me
Come now child and we shall see
What your art has come to be.
Out upon some vision dancing,
dwells a light all self entrancing
and a moderator prancing,
just a watcher-only me.
Come now child and we'll envision.
Seek the truth without revision,
let the light shine on in splendor,
that as a wise man you might render
all you see, as some sooth vendor,
for a watcher-only me.
Come now child, don't tell the story
of your illumined road to glory
ere the light fade in illusion
or your view become delusion
in some sordid self confusion
of the watcher-only me.
Come now child and calmly sit here.
Let the light be, that it draw near.
Let your nature dwell in silence.
Let the quiet be your penance
that you purify and entrance
the fabled watcher-only me.
June 08, 03 Dennis Crane
Best, Dennis
I also realised something the other day, that at the start of this current universe we happen to be in, or the one that we think we are in anyway, HUGE stars were forming out of stardust or clouds in space, these subsequently fused together and started to form such things as carbon, potassium, calcium etc. So EVERYTHING comes from that point, where HUGE stars were being born and dying quickly (a few million years).
I think one can get too lost into thinking in the way you are entering OP, it is what it is.. Take a step back and observe it with the mind that observes the mind. It is all very simple yet we for some reason make it way too complex.
Identity of Relative and Absolute
The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately
conveyed from west to east.
Among human beings are wise ones and fools,
But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.
The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary
streams flow through the darkness.
To be attached to things is illusion;
To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.
Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,
and at the same time, independent.
Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.
Form makes the character and appearance different;
Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.
The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.
The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.
Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.
Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.
Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality
Like leaves that come from the same root.
The words high and low are used relatively.
Within light there is darkness, but do not try to understand that darkness;
Within darkness there is light, but do not look for that light.
Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before
and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value
and is related to everything else in function and position.
Ordinary life fits the absolute as a box and its lid.
The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air.
Reading words you should grasp the great reality. Do not judge by any standards.
If you do not see the Way, you do not see it even as you walk on it.
When you walk the Way, it is not near, it is not far.
If you are deluded, you are mountains and rivers away from it.
I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:
Do not waste your time by night or day.
But, seeing the suffering of others is an ever present reminder of the 4 noble truths.
So, suffering is a matter of viewpoint and care. Good luck in your search. mtgby
Can someone please catalyze this for me?