Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
How White is Buddhism?
Simonthepilgrim
Veteran
It struck me that there appears to be a smaller percentage of non-white, non-Asian Buddhists in the US, UK, Canada and similar countries than in the general population. How far is my impression a reality?
0
Comments
Palzang
Mainstream seems to be attracted by Tibetian Buddhism, or more precisely, the Dalai Lama. Immigrants from Italy, former Yugoslawia and Turkey(Biggest groups of immigrants here) seem rather stable in their traditinal religions, the average guy/girl here who goes for Buddhism i would consider white, German, average education, unable to believe in God but missing some sor tof Religion /spirituality anyways.
-bf
-bf
You may be right, BF. More evidence of the racism of the socio-economic structure.
If the Dharma is to be more than a rich kids' fad, it is in the sink estates and trailer parks, ghettos and barrios that the liberation needs to be shared.
Palzang
:smilec:
P.S. I live in a trailer park (well, a "mobile home" park), and so to me, the Dharma is everywhere. Rich or poor, may we all find peace and joy!
Anyway, I think the main factor in the overrepresentation of yuppies in Western Buddhism is more due to the level of education in that sector of the populace than their income levels. I think generally speaking more educated people are usually more open to new ideas and less likely to cling to old forms than those with less education. That doesn't mean more educated people are "better" than less educated, just that they are more open to new ideas and more willing to adopt those ideas when they seem reasonable. I don't think yuppies experience more or less suffering than other people. Everybody suffers in samsara, albeit perhaps in different ways.
I think historically Buddhism has always been more initially popular in the intellectual elite of a country where it has been introduced. In Mongolia, for example, Buddhism was very popular amongst the Khans and their families for centuries before the general populace took it up.
Palzang
American Buddhists: who are they?(from97)
it was referenced in The Appeal of Buddhism in the West
Thank you for these references, Fofoo. I have read them, bookmarked them and found them very useful.
To all others: these are articles to consider seriously if we genuinely believe that Buddhism is to have a life, in the 'West' (including Oceania), beyond this generation of enthusiasts.
my father and mother both agree that they are too old to change their views and so forth.. this itself is untrue.. but shows that buddhism is not mainly for the 'intellectually elite' .. after all my dad has multiple qualifications at quite high levels.. Degrees.. and so forth.
Not to mention this 'christian' kid i met, his father is also highly educated and dubs himself a 'christian'.. In cases of smart kids its pretty much the same although many are confused, many are pretty much closed books. I don't think it has anything to do with education..
I was watching a documentry and this guy who's disabled gets bugged by kids and gets dirty looks like hes cursed in like asia.. and he was thinking in britain ppl wudn't bother him as much because we are all more educated... well shock horror.. u'll be bothered here too.
i think that patience and understanding of rushing, taking your time has more to do with actually being open-minded. I have a friend who has read some books by TNH and he only has some GCSE's to his name.. and nothing more and he's 20 now.. so yeeeaa.. although i admit i do challenge his actual realisation on many subjects, he has a far broader mind than many others his age .
I've not actually met anyone who says they 'follow the path' so can't comment much on tha racewise
Whilst there can be no doubt that the Buddha, like Jesus, told people to experience for themselves, neither of them anywhere suggested that individual judgment was an infallible guide, nor that a single individual's experience could stand for all. On the contrary, they went out of their way to warn against ignoring or dismissing the accumulated wisdom of earlier ages.
Many years ago, I had the delight-filled experience of seeing snow for the first time, again, through the eyes of a contemporary who had never seen snow fall. It made me realise how diverse are our human experiences. I have walked with people acclaimed as the finest 'minds' of their generations (even some of those "destroyed by madness") and with those assumed to be the 'dregs'. Many of these disagreed with each other over practically everything, from how to dress to how to live. Among no one group have I found much acknowledgment that all these humans are contributors, contributors to whatever the race is and how it connects to and interacts with the rest of the universe; but I have found it, in little pockets, everywhere, too.
I don't know if other people find it in their practice but I have found a heightened awareness of the absurdity of the ways in which we categorise each other.
From the perspective of an SGI member, a Nichiren Buddhist, I guess I must agree with Palzang's assertion that the SGI is a very diverse group. In my district alone the ethnicity spans from Jewish, to Arab, to African, to Black, to Chinese, Taiwaneese, Japanese, Russian, Hispanic, ... well I think I lost count but you get the picture.
Considering the population statistics I guess it does make sense that in general there are more "white" Buddhists than non white in Oceanic countries -- however as I live in one of America's largest cities I can't find personal proof of this. It might just be the diversity of Philadelphia (5 million people or more), maybe of my friends (and also myself). I've met Buddhists of every tone except pink, purple, green and maybe tomato.
Where this is a rather interesting question (especially since I really like studying people), the answer really depends on the survey to which you avail yourself. If you are looking at the suburbs of Philadelphia... Bucks, Montgomery county, etc... I'm sure you'll find a great deal more "whites" than "non-whites", these more often being Buddhist or non-Buddhist respectively. Look inside Philadelphia... well I guess finger paint, poster-board and a classroom of hyperactive 1st graders would paint a more accurate picture.
It's all in where you live man, the world is a really large place. ^^
sounds familiar to me. My father said, " I stopped by a Buddhist Temple once in Japan and didn't get it, and just left it at that. "
He still cligns to his Catholic roots.
There is another issue that occurs with ethnic Sanghas as well. My school has had temple/sanghas here in the US for about a century, but the old ethnic congregations are dwindling. As the children and grandchildren of the original immigrants assimilate more and more deeply into American culture they are less and less drawn to the old ethnic temples, as those temples have tended to function as cultural centers sometimes even more than they do as religious centers. In Japan, Buddhism tends to be more cultural than religious anyway for the greatest part of the population. My temple and some other new ones do not face this challenge, as we have no old ethnic congregation; we have different challenges instead, including the culture clash at organizational levels above the individual temples.
So, the old temples are facing dwindling congregations and some hard choices. Do they choose to welcome new American converts whose view of Buddhist practice and reasons for being part of the temple are quite different from the ethnic congregation, and who tend to want to change things? Or do they choose to maintain the status quo and slowly dwindle away? Not an easy set of decisions to face..................
Oh well.
-bf
i think you all have made good posts/observations etc. I have one question/statement.. Consider tobacco smoking-expensive habit, usually (I think-don't know any real stats on it though-help!) is used more by people who can least afford it. I have had friends living on sickness benefits (yea I know...) that smoke 2 packs a day-this works out to around $40 in US money per week. This person/s apparently cannot afford to put $20 per week into the tank to GET A JOB!
I think there is a similar case with drinking-expensive, those that use it more can less afford it? yES?
perhaps I've got it all wrong? BF will pick me up on it no doubt..:grumble: and :nonono:
cheers ( i think im gonna buy me some smokes and booze-im so depressed)
Don't forget the crack cocaine either, that's another "expensive" thing people miraculously have the cash for but can't pay their rent.. and what would the booze and smokes be without a little pick me up right? :poke:
I hear you Brigid, I smoke cigarettes though so I have that "addict perspective". And for quite a while I had a drinking problem, but that was years ago, can't say I'm addicted to crack though or ever have been....
Dennis Leary summed up the whole crack thing for me, he said something like this... "Crack? Crack? I would never smoke something named after a part of my own ass". I know profanity but it sums up how I feel about crack...
Brigid,
The point I was making was actually about how there is a conspiracy perhaps? to keep the poor addicted to smokes and booze and whatever else addiction is bad but I was not being addiction-ist.
LFA, thanks for your input and honesty. And thankyou too Brigid for clarifying to me how I may have sounded to others-love you.
Sorry if it sounded that way. I was actually having a go at my Bludger "friends".
P.S. the same person will pay $26 for Toxin-elimination product, to rid their body of "toxins". I advised that perhaps the removal of tobacco toxins might be the best for their body.
My mouth continues to get me into trouble.
cheers:zombie:
Xray,
You know, that topic would make an excellent article and it's something I think about quite often. Somewhere along my travels in the far left I picked up the phrase "Lotteries are a tax on the poor" and I really think you have something there. It's also a fact that the least expensive foods on grocery store shelves are also the most processed foods, full of sugars and fats. AND...I just thought of this one, when I went to the pharmacy to research some stop smoking aids I could NOT believe how expensive they all were. ALL of them. It's criminal. The cigarette makers ought to pay for all smoke cessation aids and they should also build detox centers where people can go in their first stages of quitting.
Sorry. I'm off on ANOTHER topic now, aren't I? Your idea has me thinking a mile a minute, Xray. You should write an article about all of this. I'm sure it would be great! Anyway, sorry for taking the thread off topic. I've had nothing to say for weeks and now I come on and hijack a thread. Bad me! lol!
Palzang
There's been a massive and incredible breakthrough in the brain sciences with regards to addiction and I'm posting a new thread about today. It makes me SO unbelievably grateful to be living here in this day and age.
Interesting discussion, especially delving into the question of poverty (whether that be lack of material resources, personal space, or respect from others), and some posts are really "peripheral" to the core topic, rather than off-topic, I think. (And, therefore, very relevant.) Xrayman makes his usual interesting contributions—but I must disagree with his assessment about his mouth getting him into trouble here:
I just wrote Federica a note stating that part of what we do on this forum is to have fun taking positions, positions which we are not necessarily holding very dear. The business of any forum is to engage in business, and the central business of this forum is discussion. And a healthy forum consists of people who have the ability to Lighten Up when that's in order. That's mostly what I find on this forum: dear folks who are not so intense that they cannot hear others.
An addiction is NOT like a disease.
Some diseases are incurable. An addiction is not.
Compassion or no - addictions can be overcome.
It may seem comforting to be able to say that an addiction is a disease - thus we have no control over it - but really, that's not true.
And I can still feel compassions for all the samsara that we all have to experience.
Samsara = sucks.
-bf
Palzang
Cancer is NOT like a disease, either!
Some diseases are incurable. AND CANCER IS NOT.
Apples are not a fruit, either!
Some fruits are oranges. And apples are not!!!!
Watermelons are not a fruit, either!
Some fruits can be swallowed whole. And watermelons cannot!!!!
I can!
Palzang
Cancer is probably not a disease - I probably mis-spoke.
So here is a list of diseases, of which, many that probably don't have anything to do with addiction. Unless they were brought on by addiction...
http://www.mic.ki.se/Diseases/Alphalist.html
-bf
What's your shoe Size!!!!
How is what you're saying proof that addiction is not like a disease? That logic is totally flawed. Some diseases can't be cured, only managed. Some addictions can't be cured, only managed. What you're saying is completely contrary to the specialists and experts who have devoted their lives to helping those with addictions. Not all addictions are curable, BF. Some people have to manage them until the day they die. (And probably after, too. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche once said that our bad habits are what transfer from this life to the next.)
Besides, you're missing the point entirely. You're dismissing out of hand the need for understanding and compassion for those with addictions, whether those addictions can be overcome, managed or eventually lead to death. Taking a hard assed approach doesn't help anybody, BF. Scientific understanding, compassion, empathy and treatment do.
You can disagree all you want but the fact remains that scientists have now found the area of the brain, called the Insula, which is involved with addiction. The latest study proves that there is an actual physiological process involved in addiction, an understanding many scientists and doctors had already suspected for many years. Did you know that Japanese researchers recently found an obesity gene?
This is not about comforting and disempowering those with addictions. It's about understanding the addictive process and understanding that placing fault and blame upon those who have little or no control over their addictions is worse than unhelpful, it's harmful and counterproductive.
If I may be so bold, I think you are measuring the experience of others and their addictions with your own. Not everybody is like you and addiction, like everything else in Samsara, is not as black and white as you may think.
Hi Boo,
I have thought about it for some time-but I just have to find the right angle (as you know-my learned friend), can you find me a copy of that? (lotteries are a tax on the poor)-thats friggin' brilliant-nice angle!
You know at the moment I'm trying to get more exposure (I know BF will run with the "exposure" word) in the Melbourne's Child www.melbourneschild.com.au mag-so I need to find an angle that is about motherhood or children...thinking....no nothing between my ears...lost....dazed..and confused:zombie:
mmmm yea great idea Boo.:type:
Love, Xray
Having worked, like others here, with health professionals for many years, I am aware of the problem that has been caused for them by the myth that they cure anything and everything.
In this sangha, many of us are living with chronic conditions. In my own case, it is the symptoms and physical signs which can be managed by diet, lifestyle change, bypass surgery, a stent and daily medication but the underlying disease continues unabated. This is the experience of most chronic sufferers.
Palzang says that we are all "addicted to samsara". We are all, also, made sick by it and die as a result of it. The power of the Dharma is that it makes sense of want, sickness, old age and death - and reminds us that they are the inevitable arisings from our 'addiction'.
Palzang
You know, I've only ever heard the expression said, or repeated more probably, and I don't know who first coined the phrase "The Lotteries are a tax on the poor". But you can always say you heard it said.
I just joined a paid, peer reviewed writing group online so I'll send you some info just in case you might be interested. Plus I think I get some sort of reward for introducing other writers to the group which is why I haven't just gone ahead and given you the link or the name of the group in this post. I have to go back to the site and see what the incentives are but even if there's nothing in it for me I'll give you the link, obviously. If you don't already know about it. It looks like a pretty cool place and I thought of you immediately when I looked at the list of topics and how the site's run. I think you'll really like it, if you haven't already heard of it.
Ooops! Am I off topic AGAIN??? My apologies everyone. I go away now.
Palzang
Hi Simon, Brigid and Palzang (oh allright you too BF).
have any of you read the scientologists book Dianetics? there are things referred to as Engrams-L.Ron. used a thing called an "e" meter to check the levels of engrams contained in people who are not clears-he must have made a friggin killing on that one-I believe it is little more than a skin resistance measuring tool-hey maybe Ill make one myself...mmmm some big dollars are coming to me yipee!
xray:bigclap:
Enneagrams have been around far longer than - and have nothing to do with - Dianetics/Scientology. If anything were calculated to demonstrate just what happens when a religious idea hitches itself to marketplace economics, Mr Hubbard's Patent Snake Oil must stand as a prime example.
true simon,
that was a point I was trying to make-he was a charlatan of biblical proportions. -Perhaps I could make a few dollars using his snake-oil e-meter etc...:rockon:
Buddhism is "so white, its green" :thumbsup:
Many people that are filled with Body Thetans ridicule the teachings of His Omnipotency.
You sound like you need a e-meter session, and some time doing labor in one of the facilities.
I'm sending agent... I mean... INSTRUCTORS to start monitoring you right away.
-bf