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is that true Buddhism does not deny the existence of a soul?
We are not the everchanging 'I'. We are not the skhandas.
So what are we then? Is there something beyond the skhandas?
To paraphrase an old Buddhist Master: To say we are or are not the skhandas is to already go wrong.
If we are the skandhas, then what is it that enjoys the sound of a bell, our Perception in action? If we are not the skandhas, then again what is it that enjoys the sound of the bell?
On the contrary. The Skhandas are actually not real. They are a missperception.
OK, but is there something beyond the skhandas?
I don't know. I just said that Buddha told us that we are not the skhandas. That is the shravaka view of emptiness. The positive side is that the one who gets sick and dies is not a self.
Nirvana is letting go of the skhandas (I think) <---[from the shravaka view of emptiness]
The purpose of this holy life does not consist in acquiring alms, honour and fame. nor in attaining virtue, concentration, or knowledge and insight. That unshakable deliverance of the heart – that indeed, monk, is the object of holy life, that is its essence, that is its goal” (M.I. 197). http://bouddhasangam.org/nibbana_5.html
We are not the everchanging 'I'. We are not the skhandas.
So what are we then? Is there something beyond the skhandas?
To paraphrase an old Buddhist Master: To say we are or are not the skhandas is to already go wrong.
I was asking a different question. Not whether we're the skhandas, but whether there is anything beyond them.
You mean like the "subtle consciousness" of the Tibetan belief system? Their belief in the ability of accomplished Meditation Masters to transfer their consciousness is fascinating.
Lama Yeshe: We ordinary beings seem to be stuck to our bodies because of sense gravitation attachment with no way out. You can call it karma, you can call it life force, you can give any kind of reason for this, but through training, yogis have learned to facilitate the transferring of their consciousness from their sense gravitation bodies and are therefore free from the fear of dying a disastrous death. They have a great feeling of freedom, knowing that whenever the need arises they can transfer their consciousness by using the meditation techniques they have practiced.
Now, I submit that if you replace the term "consciousness" with "spirit" you have not changed the meaning at all. And a spirit is a type of soul, something uniquely you that exists after death.
If you want to look up the Tibetan B viewpoint search clear light of mind rather than subtle consciousness. I think that is going to be a more fruitful search. It was a term borrowed from the bon religion I think. But at the same time there is a lineage going back to Buddha if that is to be believed. Padmasambava was instrumental in pacifying Tibet such that Buddhism could flourish.
The clear light of mind is the realization of enlightenment on death. When the anger, and greed and delusion fall apart we all see CLoM. But without training we pass out.
It is the subtle consciousness that migrates, but the CLoM that is the awakening.
I was asking a different question. Not whether we're the skhandas, but whether there is anything beyond them.
You mean like the "subtle consciousness" of the Tibetan belief system?... Now, I submit that if you replace the term "consciousness" with "spirit" you have not changed the meaning at all. And a spirit is a type of soul, something uniquely you that exists after death.
I've never really under subtle consciousness, which I agree does sound a bit like a soul.
I was thinking of the distinction between the conditioned and the unconditioned, so more like a different plane ( "sphere" ) of existence ( experience? ).
I've never really under subtle consciousness, which I agree does sound a bit like a soul.
Well, this is the thing. TB denies the use of the word "soul". It just substitutes the term "very subtle mind", and that's considered PC. But the fact is that the soul was the most important spiritual concept in Tibetan culture before Buddhism, and it came from Central Asian shamanism. That's why in TB there are a variety of ceremonies aimed at "purifying" one's karma, and such. These are ancient ceremonies that were for purifying the soul, but they got reworded or redirected after Buddhism came along.
So now that Tibetan culture is so heavily Buddhist and the old traditions surrounding the soul are taboo, we see a syncretism of the old ways and the newer Buddhist ways. Like what happened to Catholicism among the Aztecs and Mayans, who transfered their belief in a pantheon of gods to the Catholic saints.
I've never really under subtle consciousness, which I agree does sound a bit like a soul.
Well, this is the thing. TB denies the use of the word "soul". It just substitutes the term "very subtle mind", and that's considered PC. But the fact is that the soul was the most important spiritual concept in Tibetan culture before Buddhism, and it came from Central Asian shamanism. That's why in TB there are a variety of ceremonies aimed at "purifying" one's karma, and such. These are ancient ceremonies that were for purifying the soul, but they got reworded or redirected after Buddhism came along.
So now that Tibetan culture is so heavily Buddhist and the old traditions surrounding the soul are taboo, we see a syncretism of the old ways and the newer Buddhist ways. Like what happened to Catholicism among the Aztecs and Mayans, who transfered their belief in a pantheon of gods to the Catholic saints.
I've never really under subtle consciousness, which I agree does sound a bit like a soul.
Well, this is the thing. TB denies the use of the word "soul". It just substitutes the term "very subtle mind", and that's considered PC. But the fact is that the soul was the most important spiritual concept in Tibetan culture before Buddhism, and it came from Central Asian shamanism. That's why in TB there are a variety of ceremonies aimed at "purifying" one's karma, and such. These are ancient ceremonies that were for purifying the soul, but they got reworded or redirected after Buddhism came along.
So now that Tibetan culture is so heavily Buddhist and the old traditions surrounding the soul are taboo, we see a syncretism of the old ways and the newer Buddhist ways. Like what happened to Catholicism among the Aztecs and Mayans, who transfered their belief in a pantheon of gods to the Catholic saints.
Yes, I see. I'm a bit hazy about the historical development of Tibetan Buddhist - wasn't it influenced by Bon?
(ahem) That can be a touchy subject, since modern research shows it's not as simple as we used to believe. What we call Bon might not have existed as an organized local religion that predates Buddhism, but developed later from a disorganized set of magical rituals and local Shamans who might have been influenced as much by Buddhism as the other way. For whatever reason, the Tibetan Buddhist community certainly took on a unique esoteric practice. This is all I can figure out from some great websites like http://earlytibet.com/
Yes, I see. I'm a bit hazy about the historical development of Tibetan Buddhist - wasn't it influenced by Bon?
Well, what the term "Bon" refers to can be a bit fuzzy. Some specialists call the early Tibetan spiritual tradition "pre-Bon religion". Early Bon (or pre-Bon) influenced Buddhism in Tibet, but Buddhism in turn has influenced Bon tremendously, so it's hardly recognizable as early Tibetan religion any more.
Comments
If we are the skandhas, then what is it that enjoys the sound of a bell, our Perception in action? If we are not the skandhas, then again what is it that enjoys the sound of the bell?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha
scroll down to:
Mapping of the paramatthas
ultimate reality is not the aggregates (in the chart of the paramatthas).
The mahayana has a different schema (shown also in my link) but iirc you, Spiny, are a Theravadan mainly.
@SpinyNorman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha
scroll down to:
Mapping of the paramatthas
ultimate reality is not the aggregates (in the chart of the paramatthas).
The mahayana has a different schema (shown also in my link) but iirc you, Spiny, are a Theravadan mainly.
Nirvana is letting go of the skhandas (I think) <---[from the shravaka view of emptiness]
The purpose of this holy life does not consist in acquiring alms, honour and fame. nor in attaining virtue, concentration, or knowledge and insight. That unshakable deliverance of the heart – that indeed, monk, is the object of holy life, that is its essence, that is its goal” (M.I. 197).
http://bouddhasangam.org/nibbana_5.html
Lama Yeshe: We ordinary beings seem to be stuck to our bodies because of sense gravitation attachment with no way out. You can call it karma, you can call it life force, you can give any kind of reason for this, but through training, yogis have learned to facilitate the transferring of their consciousness from their sense gravitation bodies and are therefore free from the fear of dying a disastrous death. They have a great feeling of freedom, knowing that whenever the need arises they can transfer their consciousness by using the meditation techniques they have practiced.
Now, I submit that if you replace the term "consciousness" with "spirit" you have not changed the meaning at all. And a spirit is a type of soul, something uniquely you that exists after death.
The clear light of mind is the realization of enlightenment on death. When the anger, and greed and delusion fall apart we all see CLoM. But without training we pass out.
It is the subtle consciousness that migrates, but the CLoM that is the awakening.
I was thinking of the distinction between the conditioned and the unconditioned, so more like a different plane ( "sphere" ) of existence ( experience? ).
So now that Tibetan culture is so heavily Buddhist and the old traditions surrounding the soul are taboo, we see a syncretism of the old ways and the newer Buddhist ways. Like what happened to Catholicism among the Aztecs and Mayans, who transfered their belief in a pantheon of gods to the Catholic saints.
See Giuseppe Tucci's book, "Religions of Tibet" for more detail on this.
http://www.amazon.com/Giuseppe-Tucci/e/B001ITVWBI