Con Artists Dressed as Buddhist Monks

ThePensum

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/con-artists-dressed-as-buddhist-monks-dupe-people-out-of-cash-in-sydney-20140108-30gt0.html

:-(

not just Sydney, but Perth as well.

ThailandTom

Man today I went to the main temple in my city with my GF and there was a monk sat outside, my partner wanted to do this ritual for the new year for good luck or some crap. (Thai's have a lot of luck involved with Buddhism), so I was really really not into this but I had to be. So we put 100 Thai baht in this box and bought this package of our choice for the dead loved ones we knew, food, medicine etc LOL, if you can believe that. Anyway after that was done we sat in front of the monk, as we sat I saw some guy who works at the temple come up and whisper some stuff into the monks ear and they were talking for a while. Anyway we all lit our incense and there were 2 other women next to us doing the same thing, everyone but me was making the praying stance with the hands and TRYING to chant in Pali with the monk, I simply sat there and listened, then we all got sprayed with water by the monk. After I say thank you in Thai and the monk was like 'oh you can speak Thai' (in Thai) and I had a brief conversation.

At the end of the day I was not impressed by this, so much mystical crap, buying food and stuff for your loved ones who are dead, and then sitting there wishing for good luck in the new year whilst a monk says things you do not understand.. This is in a very high ranked town in Thailand and in the main temple of this town as well. owel, @Vinyln knows how it is around here, I was not angry or disrespectful, I just did not go along with it, yet paid my 100 baht for the cause.

This may be wayyyyy off topic but I have not started my own thread lol, sorry OP.

BhikkhuJayasara

kind of smart actually.. done in an unskillful way, but interesting. I wonder if they ever come across buddhists who know real monastics don't take money... or at least they shouldnt

ThailandTom

.

vinlyn

Jayantha said:

kind of smart actually.. done in an unskillful way, but interesting. I wonder if they ever come across buddhists who know real monastics don't take money... or at least they shouldnt

I must have missed something. Where did Tom say he gave the monk money?

BhikkhuJayasara

vinlyn said:

Jayantha said:

kind of smart actually.. done in an unskillful way, but interesting. I wonder if they ever come across buddhists who know real monastics don't take money... or at least they shouldnt

I must have missed something. Where did Tom say he gave the monk money?

Talking about the article.

vinlyn

Ah, okay.

Chaz

Jayantha said:

kind of smart actually.. done in an unskillful way, but interesting. I wonder if they ever come across buddhists who know real monastics don't take money... or at least they shouldnt

Well, there's nothing to point out that they're Sears monastics, either (with apology to Frank Zappa).

Robes are easy to get. You can make your own our buy them online and no one will ask to see your Super-Secret Vajra Decoder Ring With Vinaya Clusters.

Forest Tradition monks still go on alms rounds, don't they? Monks asking for support isn't exactly unusual and I'm certain bogus monks have been going around fleecing unsuspecting tourists for centuries.

Maybe we should pass laws making monk impersonation a crime and punish them severely for offending our delicate sensibilities.

anataman

I think we need to stop buddhists dressing up as con artists as well!

BhikkhuJayasara

anataman said:

I think we need to stop buddhists dressing up as con artists as well!

4tw....4tw.

ThePensum

ThailandTom said:

This may be wayyyyy off topic but I have not started my own thread lol, sorry OP.

no problem with me .... interesting story

ThailandTom

vinlyn said:

Jayantha said:

kind of smart actually.. done in an unskillful way, but interesting. I wonder if they ever come across buddhists who know real monastics don't take money... or at least they shouldnt

I must have missed something. Where did Tom say he gave the monk money?

In effect I did, that big ol money box next to the monk, you know the donation one. Not directly to the monk hand in hand but a donation to the monks and temples.

What I was getting at was not the con of money, just the way Buddhism is viewed and 'practiced' here. I must have looked like a wet weekend sat there listening to him chant away whilst the other 3 were praying. Buying food for your dead loved ones? getting blessed water thrown on you for good luck in the new year? Mystics everywhere lol

vinlyn

Even Buddhism is not free. If you go to a temple, it costs something to build the temple and to clean it and maintain it. To lay the bricks in the courtyard. To get medical care and food and clothing for the monks. Etc.

Whether you choose to participate, is up to you.

I always remember what a monk told me -- "Everything you see here (in the temple, including the temple, including the statues of Buddha) is not Buddhism." But, it may help the individual focus on Buddhism.

EvenThird

There are always a few "monks" in NYC and I always thought it was odd for them to ask for money in the middle of the street.. I guess I'm gullible, as I've fallen for that.

anataman

EvenThird said:

There are always a few "monks" in NYC and I always thought it was odd for them to ask for money in the middle of the street.. I guess I'm gullible, as I've fallen for that.

8 years ago I was in New York. Really struggling with my wife to get our 2 year old and baby somewhere that was peaceful and silent (no chance). I was having one of those living-hell moments, with both kids crying, nappy needed changing, it was lunch time, wife moaning because we were lost, and cross words were passing my lips. I just happened to glance across the street to see 5 buddhists sitting and doing some kind of practice on the kerb ). I didn't really have time to take it all in, but there was a calmness and serenity about them that calmed my mind, and within minutes I regained control, hailed a cab bundled my wife and kids into a cab and got back to the hotel.

They didn't ask for anything but gave me peace of mind. In my mind they were bodhisattvas. Whether they were really there or not I don't know - it just seemed odd that 5 people would sit randomly in the middle of all that hustle and bustle emanating peace and stillness just at the time I needed it.

I would question any buddhist monk who asked for anything other than just offering their empty bowel. If I saw one doing that I would fill it to overflowing!

Cinorjer

EvenThird said:

There are always a few "monks" in NYC and I always thought it was odd for them to ask for money in the middle of the street.. I guess I'm gullible, as I've fallen for that.

Nah, not gullible. Not unless the only reason you would ever give some change to a beggar is that you think the man is a monk. If dressing up as a monk helps a beggar get donations, it's no different from the beggar making sure he puts on old clothes and no shoes so he looks more desperate. In what way is the man dressed as a monk in that news article stealing from anyone, including the real monks? Do you really think that small change was going to end up at the temple?

There's an old man near where I shop who sits in a wheelchair at a busy intersection with a cardboard sign many days, rain or shine, summer or winter. I've seen the man wheeling himself home in the chair in the evening.

A clerk in a nearby store once told me he knows the man could actually walk because he's seen him get up and free the stuck wheelchair once. Don't know if it's true or not, but I still drop some change into the man's lap once in a while. A man doesn't have to be a cripple to earn my charity. He doesn't have to be honest, either. A man reduced to pretending he's crippled to live also deserves my compassion. A man reduced to pretending he's a monk to live may deserve compassion, also. Something to think about.

I've never agreed with the belief that giving to monks carries some special merit. If you give something with metta to a needy neighbor, it's the exact same merit as if you gave a meal to Buddha himself. A monk is just a man in a robe.

Cinorjer

ThailandTom said:

Man today I went to the main temple in my city with my GF and there was a monk sat outside, my partner wanted to do this ritual for the new year for good luck or some crap. (Thai's have a lot of luck involved with Buddhism), so I was really really not into this but I had to be. So we put 100 Thai baht in this box and bought this package of our choice for the dead loved ones we knew, food, medicine etc LOL, if you can believe that. Anyway after that was done we sat in front of the monk, as we sat I saw some guy who works at the temple come up and whisper some stuff into the monks ear and they were talking for a while. Anyway we all lit our incense and there were 2 other women next to us doing the same thing, everyone but me was making the praying stance with the hands and TRYING to chant in Pali with the monk, I simply sat there and listened, then we all got sprayed with water by the monk. After I say thank you in Thai and the monk was like 'oh you can speak Thai' (in Thai) and I had a brief conversation.

At the end of the day I was not impressed by this, so much mystical crap, buying food and stuff for your loved ones who are dead, and then sitting there wishing for good luck in the new year whilst a monk says things you do not understand.. This is in a very high ranked town in Thailand and in the main temple of this town as well. owel, @Vinyln knows how it is around here, I was not angry or disrespectful, I just did not go along with it, yet paid my 100 baht for the cause.

This may be wayyyyy off topic but I have not started my own thread lol, sorry OP.

I think you're just experiencing the fact that since these aren't your ceremonies and traditions, they don't evoke any emotion in you. One of the huge problems with living in a strange land. People either try to find others and recreate a bit of home like here where there's a Korean neighborhood in Grand Rapids with shops, etc, or become slightly crazy from trying to "go native".

seeker242

EvenThird said:

There are always a few "monks" in NYC and I always thought it was odd for them to ask for money in the middle of the street.. I guess I'm gullible, as I've fallen for that.

It depends on what kind of monks they are and of what tradition. Not all monks are forbidden from accepting or handling money. Especially so for E Asian monks. Korean monks for example, the standard gift for a Korean monk, is money.

EvenThird

Well, now I'm not sure how I should feel about this whole thing. To beg is usually something people do if they are in the financial dumps enough to need it.. so I understand how it doesn't matter if they are in a wheelchair when they can walk, or dressed as a monk when they are not.
I will try not to harbor any ill will toward the next cash-asking monk I see. For they either need the money, or they are monks, who need the money. As far as merit goes, I don't think it matters whether they are actual monks or not, or actually homeless etc. The act of giving is your karma, your good intentions..

pyramidsong

Dude, I'm in Melbourne and that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I gave him a fiver, he tried to ratchet it up to $30 or $50. Jerk.

Cinorjer

pyramidsong said:

Dude, I'm in Melbourne and that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I gave him a fiver, he tried to ratchet it up to $30 or $50. Jerk.

Even jerks deserve compassion. And sounds like every used car salesman I ever met.

BhikkhuJayasara

the term Bhikkhu literally means beggar...

Bhikkhu may be literally translated as "beggar" or more broadly as "one who lives by alms". It is philologically analysed in the Pāli commentary of Buddhaghosa as "the person who sees danger (in samsara or cycle of rebirth)" (Pāli: Bhayaṃ ikkhatīti: bhikkhu). He therefore seeks ordination to release from it.[3] The Dhammapada states:[4]
“ [266-267] He is not a monk just because he lives on others' alms. Not by adopting outward form does one become a true monk. Whoever here (in the Dispensation) lives a holy life, transcending both merit and demerit, and walks with understanding in this world — he is truly called a monk.


so technically all monks are beggars, the ones who follow the vinaya can't use money or ASK for anything though(like in the article where they approach people for donations).

I highly suggest a great book called " Blistered feet, Blissful Mind" about monastics who go on Thudong(wandering) through england. There is a lot in there about how they cannot ask for stuff and the funny and inspiring experiences they had with regular people who were generous.

http://www.amazon.com/Blistered-Feet-Blissful-Mind-Price/dp/190608517X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389276225&sr=8-1&keywords=blistered+feet+blissful+mind

pyramidsong

Cinorjer said:

pyramidsong said:

Dude, I'm in Melbourne and that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I gave him a fiver, he tried to ratchet it up to $30 or $50. Jerk.

Even jerks deserve compassion. And sounds like every used car salesman I ever met.

True. I just find the whole thing really tacky and distasteful. And frankly, they are preying on the fact that people respond to "kindly Buddhist monks". Oh, well. Fool me once and all that.

ThePensum

pyramidsong said:

Dude, I'm in Melbourne and that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I gave him a fiver, he tried to ratchet it up to $30 or $50. Jerk.

We should probably put this to rest, but curiosity is getting the better of me. How could one possibly try and ratchet something up by that much? Was there some sort of karma argument, much like those chain mails, whereby it is said that the more you contribute (or forward e-mails) the more that will come back to you?

dodgy.

Invincible_summer

I remember being in Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur, Jalan Alor, specifically) and seeing a man dressed in orange-ish robes wandering around, asking people for money/food. He did not have an alms bowl, and it was 7-8PM... well past the noon-hour restriction for eating. Not to mention actually asking people for things (which is against the vinaya, as mentioned by others), specifically, money.

Some other tourists not so knowledgeable about Theravadan monasticism did actually give him some small money and bowed to him. The "monk" bowed back, placing the money in a pocket sewn into the robes...


Sigh.

pyramidsong

ThePensum said:

pyramidsong said:

Dude, I'm in Melbourne and that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I gave him a fiver, he tried to ratchet it up to $30 or $50. Jerk.

We should probably put this to rest, but curiosity is getting the better of me. How could one possibly try and ratchet something up by that much? Was there some sort of karma argument, much like those chain mails, whereby it is said that the more you contribute (or forward e-mails) the more that will come back to you?

dodgy.

Actually, kind of. And I'm a small woman and his body language was getting too familiar (he put a prayer bracelet on my wrist without asking me if I wanted it, which- don't touch me, strange man, monk or not) and his voice more insistent, and he was stabbing at the page in his little book showing me others' more generous contributions. I found him really obnoxious and intimidating and really only gave him the $5 to get him to go away. Not a pleasant experience.

ThePensum

yikes. very odd

ThailandTom

Cinorjer said:

ThailandTom said:

Man today I went to the main temple in my city with my GF and there was a monk sat outside, my partner wanted to do this ritual for the new year for good luck or some crap. (Thai's have a lot of luck involved with Buddhism), so I was really really not into this but I had to be. So we put 100 Thai baht in this box and bought this package of our choice for the dead loved ones we knew, food, medicine etc LOL, if you can believe that. Anyway after that was done we sat in front of the monk, as we sat I saw some guy who works at the temple come up and whisper some stuff into the monks ear and they were talking for a while. Anyway we all lit our incense and there were 2 other women next to us doing the same thing, everyone but me was making the praying stance with the hands and TRYING to chant in Pali with the monk, I simply sat there and listened, then we all got sprayed with water by the monk. After I say thank you in Thai and the monk was like 'oh you can speak Thai' (in Thai) and I had a brief conversation.

At the end of the day I was not impressed by this, so much mystical crap, buying food and stuff for your loved ones who are dead, and then sitting there wishing for good luck in the new year whilst a monk says things you do not understand.. This is in a very high ranked town in Thailand and in the main temple of this town as well. owel, @Vinyln knows how it is around here, I was not angry or disrespectful, I just did not go along with it, yet paid my 100 baht for the cause.

This may be wayyyyy off topic but I have not started my own thread lol, sorry OP.

I think you're just experiencing the fact that since these aren't your ceremonies and traditions, they don't evoke any emotion in you. One of the huge problems with living in a strange land. People either try to find others and recreate a bit of home like here where there's a Korean neighborhood in Grand Rapids with shops, etc, or become slightly crazy from trying to "go native".

Maybe a little but my point was mainly about how far Buddhist practice and even the basic understanding of what Buddhism is has been lost here, the country with the highest population of Buddhists. After the ceremony I asked my girlfriend what the monk was chanting and she said she had no idea lol.. At first I was ok about it as we made a donation and chose a basket of things like medicine, toothpaste, food etc and I thought it was for the monks. I only later realized it is meant for your loved ones in the afterlife...

I do not really have any ceremonies because I was never brought into a religion growing up, I chose to follow the teachings of the Buddha before I came to Thailand and when I did I had a shock, it is all magic, luck and spirits for the most part.

Cinorjer

ThailandTom said:

Cinorjer said:

ThailandTom said:

Man today I went to the main temple in my city with my GF and there was a monk sat outside, my partner wanted to do this ritual for the new year for good luck or some crap. (Thai's have a lot of luck involved with Buddhism), so I was really really not into this but I had to be. So we put 100 Thai baht in this box and bought this package of our choice for the dead loved ones we knew, food, medicine etc LOL, if you can believe that. Anyway after that was done we sat in front of the monk, as we sat I saw some guy who works at the temple come up and whisper some stuff into the monks ear and they were talking for a while. Anyway we all lit our incense and there were 2 other women next to us doing the same thing, everyone but me was making the praying stance with the hands and TRYING to chant in Pali with the monk, I simply sat there and listened, then we all got sprayed with water by the monk. After I say thank you in Thai and the monk was like 'oh you can speak Thai' (in Thai) and I had a brief conversation.

At the end of the day I was not impressed by this, so much mystical crap, buying food and stuff for your loved ones who are dead, and then sitting there wishing for good luck in the new year whilst a monk says things you do not understand.. This is in a very high ranked town in Thailand and in the main temple of this town as well. owel, @Vinyln knows how it is around here, I was not angry or disrespectful, I just did not go along with it, yet paid my 100 baht for the cause.

This may be wayyyyy off topic but I have not started my own thread lol, sorry OP.

I think you're just experiencing the fact that since these aren't your ceremonies and traditions, they don't evoke any emotion in you. One of the huge problems with living in a strange land. People either try to find others and recreate a bit of home like here where there's a Korean neighborhood in Grand Rapids with shops, etc, or become slightly crazy from trying to "go native".

Maybe a little but my point was mainly about how far Buddhist practice and even the basic understanding of what Buddhism is has been lost here, the country with the highest population of Buddhists. After the ceremony I asked my girlfriend what the monk was chanting and she said she had no idea lol.. At first I was ok about it as we made a donation and chose a basket of things like medicine, toothpaste, food etc and I thought it was for the monks. I only later realized it is meant for your loved ones in the afterlife...

I do not really have any ceremonies because I was never brought into a religion growing up, I chose to follow the teachings of the Buddha before I came to Thailand and when I did I had a shock, it is all magic, luck and spirits for the most part.

Yeah, Buddhism for the average lay person in the world has traditionally been much different from what we practice now and local superstitions and beliefs seemed to play a big part. Most people are too busy raising a family and earning a living to worry about eliminating suffering, and just want a bit of good luck in their life and someone to conduct the ceremonies of life and death, really.

betaboy

Instead of acting like judgmental p****s, we must ask better questions such as:

a) Why are people desperate enough to do that?
b) Why do some people have too much and others too little?
c) If the system rewards you for your wealth and not for your virtue, isn't it hypocritical to expect people to be virtuous?

And so on.......

footiam

ThePensum said:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/con-artists-dressed-as-buddhist-monks-dupe-people-out-of-cash-in-sydney-20140108-30gt0.html

:-(

not just Sydney, but Perth as well.

Not in Sydney and Perth but everywhere as well. There are always con artists everywhere taking advantage of the good people.