insight (vipassana) meditation

upekka

those who think that they do not know how to do Insight meditation

go to:
www.visuddhimagga.info

and go to

ancient meditation

and go to

meditation in english stream

and

start from 28/09/2013 to 30/09/2013


happy and fruitful meditation!

anando

Hello,
at first i must say that i´m not into any buddhist orgisation. I was just doing the Pali-Canon, theory and paracticed the 8FOLD PATH. I am conscious about the fact that the original teaching of Gotamo Buddho, is not into Pali-Canon but it is the must orginal
Literature that is since these times, until today, available. If you have reached the 8th part of Jhanas, by changing your consciousnes, it´s upon you to go further. There is
no instruction any more.You must find it out for yourself.
I think that this is the highest point of what a human can reach and please be curious
it really is great to meet Maro Dusi and enter brahmaic planes.

snsnfo

matthewmartin

anando said:

it really is great to meet Maro Dusi and enter brahmaic planes.

Maro Dusi? Google fails me on this reference.

brahmaic planes? like http://www.airindia.com/ ?

upekka

anando said:

the original teaching of Gotamo Buddho, is

until today, available.

If you have reached the 8th part of Jhanas, by changing your consciousnes, it´s upon you to go further.

There is no instruction any more.You must find it out for yourself.

I think that this is the highest point of what a human can reach

4th jhana and go further with insight meditation (with the help of instruction get from Buddha's Teaching) is enough to get Noble Right View (stream entry)

ability to go up to 8th jhana is bonus

in Pali-canon it says even with the first jhana and Insight meditation would help to gain Noble Right view (sorry at the moment it is not possible to provide exact reference off the head)

Without getting the Noble Right View one can not practice Noble Eightfold Path

NEP is the key to Liberation/Enlightenment/Nibbana

DairyLama

upekka said:

in Pali-canon it says even with the first jhana and Insight meditation would help to gain Noble Right view (sorry at the moment it is not possible to provide exact reference off the head)

I'd be interested to see some references for that, because there are quite a lot of suttas which describe Nibbana as being preceded by progress through all 8 jhanas - see this one for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html

upekka

DN 15 PTS: D ii 55
Maha-nidana Sutta: The Great Causes Discourse


MN 106: Aneñja-sappaya Sutta — Conducive to the Imperturbable {M ii 261}

there could be more

DairyLama

upekka said:

DN 15 PTS: D ii 55
Maha-nidana Sutta: The Great Causes Discourse
MN 106: Aneñja-sappaya Sutta — Conducive to the Imperturbable {M ii 261}

Thanks. I've had a quick look at both of these, but can't see anything which supports the view that 1st jhana alone is sufficient. Could you provide some brief quotes from these suttas, the relevant bits on this particular point?

upekka

Eight Emancipations

"Ananda, there are these eight emancipations. Which eight?

"Possessed of form, one sees forms. This is the first emancipation.

"Not percipient of form internally, one sees forms externally. This is the second emancipation.

"One is intent only on the beautiful. This is the third emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fourth emancipation. [Fifth jhana]

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the fifth emancipation. [sixth jhana]

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' one enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is the sixth emancipation.[7th jhana]

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, one enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the seventh emancipation.[eight jhana]

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, one enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the eighth emancipation.[sanna-vedaitha nirodha] this can be attained only by Anagami and Arahat

"Now, when a monk attains these eight emancipations in forward order, in reverse order, in forward and reverse order, when he attains them and emerges from them wherever he wants, however he wants, and for as long as he wants, when through the ending of the mental fermentations he enters and remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having directly known it and realized it in the here and now, he is said to be a monk released in both ways. And as for another release in both ways, higher or more sublime than this, there is none."

(this is from maha nidana sutta)

it is necessary to read several times with paying full attention to anenja sappaya sutta to see the same a above in maha nidana sutta
.
but in anenja sappaya it mentioned from the forth jhana up wards


one of the sermon given by one of the monk (ven pitigala gunarathna) mentioned Assaji sutta in this regard

just now I got the reference

Samyuktha Nikaya 3 214

fivebells

SpinyNorman said:

Thanks. I've had a quick look at both of these, but can't see anything which supports the view that 1st jhana alone is sufficient. Could you provide some brief quotes from these suttas, the relevant bits on this particular point?

One qualification here is that it is not necessary to master all the levels of concentration in order to gain Awakening. The relationship of concentration to discernment is a controversial issue, which we will cover in the following section, but here we may simply note that many texts [§§173-74] point out that the experience of the first jhāna can be a sufficient basis for the discernment leading to Awakening. The same holds true for the first four steps in breath meditation, which constitute one of the alternative ways of developing the body in and of itself as a frame of reference [§30]. In this case, one's practice of breath meditation would jump from a mastery of step 4 straight to step 13, skipping the intervening steps. In fact, beginning with step 4, it is possible to jump directly to 13 from any of the steps, and from there to progress all the way to Awakening.

The fact that the higher stages are unnecessary in some cases, however, does not mean that they are superfluous. Many people, as they develop the skill of their meditation, will find that their minds naturally go to deeper levels of stillness with no liberating insight arising. For them, the maps are valuable aids for a number of reasons. To begin with, the maps can help indicate what does and does not count as Awakening.

§174 is the more pertinent scripture quote of the two, I think.

anataman

The problem with these sutra translations is that they don't sit well! with an English language view, unless they are transcendental in every aspect of their translation so
lets take the first emancipation:

'Possessed of form, one sees forms. This is the first emancipation.'

Possessed basically means: completely controlled by' If you are completely controlled by it how can you 'see it'?

Emancipation means: the fact or process of being set free from (something)

emancipation from the possessed?

unless one interprets 'one sees' as being completely and utterly freely aware of - the two terms cannot sit comfortably together in a sentence without the observance of the unobfuscated awareness perceiving the dualism.

Perhaps this really is the essence of the understanding of the ineffable, or not?

Insight, is just that, insight - it cannot take you further than this, but can you witness and be that insight simultaneously - this is not an @betaboy question, its just a question?

NAMASTE

Hamsaka

I'm with ya there @Anataman, I get all boggled by all the POSSIBLE meanings of the words chosen by the translators.

I suppose as practice matures, the boggling gets more streamlined as what is obviously not meant atrophies and falls off ( When I had male goat kids, I'd castrate them within the first week of life with a super tight thick rubber band-thing that would pinch off circulation to their little nuts. The testicles would atrophy, dry up, and fall off. It appears only to be painful for an hour or so, and that's what Banamine is for. Thought you'd appreciate this as a doctor )

So let's hope, with practice, our apprehension of the suttas becomes more clear and their meaning, as applied to our lives, more obvious.

Hamsaka

ETA: Trust me . . . castrating a male goat is 100% pure compassion. Anyone who's ever been around an intact billy goat in rut will agree. Those poor boys are suffering terribly.

DairyLama

fivebells said:

§174 is the more pertinent scripture quote of the two, I think.

Yes, though the bit at the end seems to muddy the waters a little - why do these suttas go on to mention the full jhana set if the 1st jhana alone is sufficient?

"Ven. Ānanda: Yes, householder, there is... There is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhāna... He notices that 'This first jhāna is fabricated & willed.' He discerns, 'Whatever is fabricated & willed is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the effluents. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight and through the total wasting away of the five lower fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. [Similarly with the other levels of jhāna up through the dimension of nothingness and the four awareness-releases based on good will, compassion, empathetic joy, & equanimity.]"

— AN 11.17

DairyLama

upekka said:

Eight Emancipations
Samyuktha Nikaya 3 214

Thanks, but I don't see how this helps because it's gives the impression that progress through all 8 jhanas is required. So?....

anataman

Hamsaka said:

I'm with ya there @Anataman, I get all boggled by all the POSSIBLE meanings of the words chosen by the translators.

I suppose as practice matures, the boggling gets more streamlined as what is obviously not meant atrophies and falls off ( When I had male goat kids, I'd castrate them within the first week of life with a super tight thick rubber band-thing that would pinch off circulation to their little nuts. The testicles would atrophy, dry up, and fall off. It appears only to be painful for an hour or so, and that's what Banamine is for. Thought you'd appreciate this as a doctor )

So let's hope, with practice, our apprehension of the suttas becomes more clear and their meaning, as applied to our lives, more obvious.

even so... Ouch!

upekka

SpinyNorman said:

why do these suttas go on to mention the full jhana set if the 1st jhana alone is sufficient?

following is my understanding:

some people starts meditation without knowing Buddha's Teaching
they always try to go up to 8th jhana

8th jhana is the highest jhana one can go through concentration (samatha) meditation

concentration meditation can be done by anyone who is with any religious belief including buddhists

jhana is the state of mind where there is no greed or hate and one can continue such a state if mind for a long time even after one comes out of jhana state
then one is able to contemplate -(yoniso manasikara) of Buddha's Teaching (hear/read- parathogosa) with a clear mind and verify Buddha's Teaching oneself

Yoniso manasikara and parathogosa are the necessary requirement to understand Dhamma (Buddha's Teaching)
this part is the Insight (vipassana) meditation

Only Buddhas can understand Dhamma without getting help from others


obtaining jhana before Insight is the 'smooth way' of getting wisdom
getting Insight without jhana is the 'hard way'

whatever way one chose to get wisdom it is inevitable one is go through first jhana

anataman

jhana is the state of mind where there is no greed or hate and one can continue such a state if mind for a long time even after one comes out of jhana state

I would say that the first Jhana is the realisation that concentrated effort is required to enter a true meditative state. When you have achieved the first you can look at the second as the next goal. Until you have achieved the first, why bother about the others.

I am afraid @upekka I am completely lost when you start talking about 'Yoniso manasikara and parathogosa are the necessary requirement to understand Dhamma (Buddha's Teaching) this part is the Insight (vipassana) meditation '

Perhaps someone will enlighten me further as my pali/sanskrit/japanese and chinese are pretty poor. I need English words to comprehend buddhist teachings

upekka

anataman said:

'Yoniso manasikara and parathogosa

yoniso = right/skillful
manasikara =attention/thinking

paratho = others (Buddh's/other sangha's/ writings about buddha's teaching/hear or read from outside)
gosa = speach

fivebells

Yoniso Manisikara

DairyLama

upekka said:

obtaining jhana before Insight is the 'smooth way' of getting wisdom
getting Insight without jhana is the 'hard way'

I suppose that begs the question: Why would anyone choose the hard way?

anataman

upekka said:

anataman said:

'Yoniso manasikara and parathogosa

yoniso = right/skillful
manasikara =attention/thinking

paratho = others (Buddh's/other sangha's/ writings about buddha's teaching/hear or read from outside)
gosa = speach

I get it now!

Haven't read this before thanks @fivebells

fivebells said:

Yoniso Manisikara

upekka

SpinyNorman said:

I suppose that begs the question: Why would anyone choose the hard way?

this is a good example how one would get a wrong idea just by reading (words)


who does not try to go through 'smooth way' does not know 'how hard' it is to get to first jhana

who does try to go through 'hard way' does go through first jhana even without his/her knowing that he/she attains first jhana


qualities of first jhana are 'savitakka/saviccara, prithi, suka'
one can verify whether one is with first jhana or not
because
at that state of mind one is fully aware of what is happening in one's mind

anataman

Sorry @Upekka - losing me again with 'savitakka/saviccara, prithi, suka'

My son has a friend called `prithi, and he is a right pain in the arse, but my son is no Sucker!

Would you mind elaborating in English for me again!

upekka

anataman said:

Would you mind elaborating in English for me again!

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html

read 3. which explains first jhana

my pali to english is poor
so
i have to depend on bante gunaratna's writing

anataman

Well that's a lot to get through, but will perceiver for the sake of 4 words.