Daniel Ingram: "Hardcore Dharma"

Hamsaka

I've been seeking further instruction on meditation, and thanks to a link sent by Sova (thank you!) I found the Dharma Overground website, and Daniel Ingram, it's founder. He wrote a book about meditation "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" which is free on his website.

Ingram claims he is an arahant in the method he outlined in MCTB, but not as described in the Buddhist scriptures. I bought the Kindle version (give a little dana here and there) and it's been a difficult read, it's more written as he would speak it if you know what I mean.

Anyone else here know of Ingram and his meditation teachings? Sitting meditation (as well as other varieties) is presenting itself to me as more and more important, and doing 'things' within the meditation, mastering the skill levels as opposed to 'simple' zazen is calling to me.

I am wondering if anyone here has had their meditation benefit from Ingram's instructions, or if they have pursued his instructions at all, and your experiences if you want to share them?

Thanks, and gassho

BhikkhuJayasara

you lost me forever at "claims he is an arahant"

Hamsaka

Almost lost me, too @Jayantha, right there! I placed that little tidbit back on the shelf. Honestly, I'm like the next person when it comes to such high falutin' claims, and that's why I mentioned it in the OP. I'll push past what such claims do inside my own perception and prove to myself the verity of his techniques.

I've been a self-help book reader since I was ten years old. I used to get a funny look from the old librarian when I checked my books out in the town library. I've wasted too much of my life just buying this claim or that claim. I've also experienced valuable information coming from persons who's claims about themselves I don't buy, so . . .

One comforting thing Ingram said is that the moment he perceives someone as trying to follow him or idealize him, he discourages them strongly if that means he ends the relationship. He says he sees himself as a fellow traveler, and that others who experiment with his ideas are not his 'followers'. What I've read so far hasn't given me the impression he is falsely modest but I've read very little in depth.

Gassho

how

It sounds like his definition of being an arhant of his form of meditation doesn't pertain to the Buddhist definition......so why use it when your book title is
"Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha"?

fivebells

I know his method well, practiced it for a few months. It has the drawback of being a "Gain enlightenment using this one crazy trick!" approach, which I no longer buy. But it is a good method, even if it doesn't pertain to every situation, and I still regularly resort to a form of it multiple times a day. Also, his approach is super-serious and goal oriented, and his website attracts super-serious, goal-oriented practitioners, which makes it a great place to hang out.

I believe he has retracted his claims of being an arahant. His definitions of the stages in MCTB are also very liberal. According to his criteria, I am a stream-entrant, or even further along. Personally, I think relaxing the criteria for these levels is pessimistic: it doesn't hurt to have very high standards and lofty goals when it comes to these questions. By the definitions he used in the book, I think he is an arahant, but he has since admitted that there is more work for him to do, which means he is not an arahant by the standards of the suttas. (I can't find the quote now, but one of the standard formulas in the suttas for reaching the goal is that there is nothing more to do in this life.)

Also, his focus on the stages of enlightenment attracts a lot of people who want to know what stage they're at in the practice. It's the obverse of attracting super-serious, goal-oriented people, I guess. Always, seemed a bit strange to me, because he recommends the same practice no matter what stage you're at, so why bother to determine it?

If I were you and his approach seems appealing, I would give it a try for a while, keeping these caveats in mind. I found it very productive, and the website very helpful.

Hamsaka

@Fivebells, yes, I was impressed by the seriousness and general supportiveness on his Dharma Overground forums. No noise. Even beginners with massive misunderstanding are treated gently and with encouragement. That says a lot, at least to me, about the practice of those frequently on the forums, perhaps Ingram himself.

What I need right now is specific direction in my meditation, specifically to do with concentration, and a 'map' of where it all goes, as experienced by others who've gone on before me. I have enough life experience to not expect what I will experience to be exactly like others. I have a 'take what works and leave the rest' attitude about Ingram's work.

I admit I have a hard time 'translating' sutta directions directly into concrete directions for what I can do. I don't know why. I cannot get much out of reading Shakespeare or Jane Austin or many of the classics for the same reason. My grasp of the language is firmly modern, and it is a limitation. Nice, modern language as provided in secular Buddhism and other 'take offs' such as MCTB etc have helped me immensely. Thanissaro Bikkhu has been a lifesaver!

I also want explicit meditation direction more than anything. I don't care if I end up where Ingram did, and I don't care that much about 'attainment' in the goal oriented way, though a basic 'where am I?' is helpful.

His 'hard core' Dharma strikes me as so very MALE lol. And so very Western male, you know, goal directed, speeding toward Omega. I am female and quite so on the inside, and don't mind going in loops and spirals . Wherever I can find 'hard core' meditation instruction that I can actually UNDERSTAND within the context of my experience is what I want. I've had trouble finding that, and believe me, I've spent countless hours looking and listening.

Gassho

fivebells

Yes, Thanissaro is great.

Ingram's "hard core" attitude may actually come from Burma. You can find the same attitude in the Goenka tradition, which is also Burmese. Their appeal in the West probably does mostly come from a Western masculine attitude, though.

Hamsaka

Ingram does mention Goenka a lot, so, naturally. This is something I didn't know about Burmese influence, it's all good to know. There is a Goenka retreat center about 30" south of where I live. I've been looking into it and the sort of vipassana practiced there. Turns out, after reading a bit of Ingram, I didn't have an accurate understanding of vipassana meditation. I assumed it was a 'psychological' insight, but it is much much more than that.

fivebells

If you're looking for hardcore, you will find it at a Goenka retreat.

If you go, it's worth knowing that they are not very tolerant of variation from the practices they recommend, even if they don't make sense for where you're currently at. Be prepared to power through with their advice, or keep your mouth shut when they ask how you're doing with it.

Hamsaka

Yeah, that sounds about right from what I've read and heard too!

I 'get' the rationale behind letting go of my particular little needs or preferences (or, variations) that Goenka retreats demand. I went through a program called Pursuit of Excellence back in the early 90's (rolling my eyes along with ya) and they do a retreat called "The Wall". It was a four day weekend of complete verbal and nonverbal silence except in class or with your assigned counselor, and complete compliance with every activity, which included an early morning two mile walk/run and oatmeal, rice, fruit and vegetables (one serving per each of three meals). Aside from the Pursuit of Excellence dogma, the experience of 'noble silence' and surrendering your time and self to an outer dictate was overall very beneficial to me. I 'get' the usefulness of it and unless my mattress catches fire or my roommate has very, very bad gas, I feel confident in my ability to handle that kind of structure.

It's such a looooong time, though, ten days . . . that's where I have my little complaints and inconveniences . I don't believe them as true, but they are pretty strong. I am willing to go, and will.

anataman

to a buddhist bootcamp?

Hamsaka

Well, the whole idea behind 'bootcamp' has its merits!

"You" are removed from your comfy, familiar environment. That automatically detaches you from all the little attachments of which your 'self' identifies with.

Then, instead of following your own inner dictates (from the self) you are following the dictates of something outside yourself whether you 'want to' or not. Getting past that 'want to' is important. The 'want to' is developmentally about two or three years old, and at "The Wall" I witnessed quite a few folks regress, let me tell you, especially over the food!

No doubt about it, it's uncomfortable, but if it isn't uncomfortable, or downright excruciating, how else can you get past your self-imposed limitations?

Speaking of the various kinds of "boot camp" a person can experience in life: One of the nurses I work with used to hunt a lot (ignore the animal murder for the sake of the story), and he had a cabin in Alaska he'd go to, all by himself for a couple of weeks at a time.

We were talking about meditation during dinner break one night and he told me he'd been up there for about a week and found a mirror way back in a cupboard. He pulled it out and saw his reflection and completely tripped out. He said he'd literally forgotten about himself, being all alone and in the middle of the wilderness, and seeing his own face suddenly 'reminded' him. You'd have had to be sitting there witnessing him tell the story to get the impact . The look on his face when he relived that memory was both hilarious and really, really deep.