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Russia Invades Ukraine

ZaylZayl Veteran
in General Banter
Not too much about it on the news that I've seen, and of course any media that does mention it is downplaying it a lot. But you can't really ignore that fact that a fleet of Russian Attack and Transport choppers has entered, landed, and is now operating in Ukrainian airspace. Meanwhile, the ousted Ex-President of the Ukraine is urging Russia to take even more drastic measures. Calling the popular uprising against his corrupt regime "Far-Right Fascist terrorism" that is "Backed by western interests"

Things have the potential to seriously go wrong over there. I mean they already have, but on a massive, global scale.

RUSSIA STRONK.

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Power corrupts.
    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Russia really has to proceed very carefully.... :
    DaltheJigsaw
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    If i have my info right, technically its not an invasion, its a "help mission", since the legal ruler still "rules" even though out of the country, ousted by illegal rebels.

    So technically russia has permission no? Im talking politically btw, not logically.
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    Jay, yeah you're right, politically Russia has permission. Even though as you said, Logically Yanukovich (I spelled that correctly, right?) is no longer president. I mean, if you are a democratically elected official, and a majority of the nation runs you across the border. I'd say that no longer make you president.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited February 2014
    Well lets not forget Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon was a "help mission" too hehe. Pretext is key!

    Politics is like human nature.. Because it IS human nature. It has never changed and probably never will. Ive always been interested in the game of nations even as an adolescent. Its all politicrevolt ater, there should be a reality show of it lol.

    On the flip side the people have always and will always be the same, with the rare exception of when they have exceptional leaders like ghandi. Its a cycle, when things are good or bearable the people are fat and happy, apathetic and easily controlled.. When it gets desperate enough the people revolt, violently and in chaos, and if they manage to change governments the new one is almost always worse then the old and controlled by foreign powers. nothing ever changes.
    absoluteDharmaMcBum
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    @Zayl, are there any links or resources to information about the so-called illegal majority in the Ukraine that you have on hand? I have a friend at work who lived in Eastern Europe as a teenager (she's American, her parents were hippy wanderers). She'd be interested too.
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    @Hamsaka

    Not entirely sure if these links are what you're looking for, but here.

    http://channel9000.net/espreso/
    Streaming video channels from the Ukraine

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/02/ukraine-government-verge-collapse-201422213757684211.html
    An older story on it now.

    That's really all I can offer that isnt say, yahoo news or cnn.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Ukraine seems to have had ethnic tensions for a very long time - I read somewhere that a large chunk of the Ukrainian population welcomed the Germans when they invaded in the second World War.
    But yes, it's all very worrying in terms of super-power tension.
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    It is. The last thing we need is another cold war standoff with Russia.
  • Frozen_ParatrooperFrozen_Paratrooper Veteran
    Ukrainians have an understandable tension with the Russians seeing as the country was starved to death in the 30s intentionally. They welcomed the Germans as liberators because they originally were in a sense, until they proved themselves just as bad.
  • Steve_BSteve_B Veteran
    Here are links to two brief pieces on CNN that describe the background a culture a little bit:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/27/opinion/ghitis-crimea/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

    http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/world/ukraine-divided/?iid=article_sidebar

    Yes, there is underlying ethnic tension. About 30% of the country, mostly in the east along the Russian border and in Crimea, is ethnic Russian in heritage and culture, and Moscow-leaning socially. The vast majority of the country, Ukranian and other ethnicities, is pro-Western. When president Yanukovych cancelled a European trade deal and aligned with Russia, the majority uprising made him decide he'd be safer in Russia than in Ukraine, so he slipped over the border. The remaining government has installed technocrats in key posts and is setting up for elections as soon as possible, but they may not be well equipped to deal with the massive Russian military buildup and threat of imminent invasion.
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    The Ukraine voluntarily gave up their nuclear weapons in the 90's, with the guarantee from the UK and USA that they would fight if the Ukraine got invaded. Which they are now ignoring.

    I reckon nobody would have messed with the Ukraine if they'd kept their warheads.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Zayl said:

    It is. The last thing we need is another cold war standoff with Russia.

    I grew up during the Cold War and sincerely hope there isn't another one...it's just so dangerous.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think you'll find being at the business end of any war, is.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    The Ukranian problem is really, really delicate. First, you have a history where Kiev ( the actual capital of Ukraine ) was the nucleus of the Rus ( russian ) voyvodate. Second, you have a history where Ukraine and Russia are separate. Ukraine was a part of Russia, and Russia knows this ( this is why Russians rushed to 'help' fellow Ukraine, by invading it ). Ukraine's actual problem, right now, is a conflict of both ( political ) influence and economy ( Germany, E.U. vs Russia ).
    Although Ukraine is not part of the Balkans, I still consider it to be part of the ' Europe's Gunpowder Barrel' countries, and Russia deliberately invading an independent and sovereign country, will spark the fuse of this gunpowder barrel.
    CinorjerBarra
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    A country like Russia that's a dictatorship in everything but name, ran by a man who glorifies in his macho image and with Russians openly going through a nostalgia stage for the old Soviet Union? Of course he'll at least take Crimea and dare the world to do something about it. If Ukranian protest becomes too great, well something like 80 percent of their oil and gas is piped in from Russia and he'll turn it off.

    Anyone who watches the world at large expects a wave of conflict as peak oil, global warming, and rising demand for resources from countries like China stress artificial national boundaries and cause old regimes to face protest.

    I hate living in interesting times.
  • Steve_BSteve_B Veteran
    Vladimir Putin is hugely popular in Russia. His military invasion of Crimea is hugely popular in Crimea; it is seen as a liberation. Putin played the fear mongering and spin masterfully. What Western leader can claim similar large scale popular support for their positions or proposed actions? Putin is playing an extremely strong hand. I think he wins this round, very decisively.
    Cinorjeranataman
  • BarraBarra soto zennie wandering in a cloud in beautiful, bucolic Victoria BC, on the wacky left coast of Canada Veteran
    Putin is playing the bully and had no right to send his troops in to another country.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    federica said:

    I think you'll find being at the business end of any war, is.

    That wasn't what I meant. The scary thing about the Cold War was the continual possibility of thermonuclear war.

  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/03/russian-navy-tells-ukrainian-forces-in-crimea-to-surrender---reports/
  • Frozen_ParatrooperFrozen_Paratrooper Veteran
    We may believe ourselves civilized. But fascist regimes like Russia still operate by the laws of the jungle. And since much of Europe has virtually disarmed since the wars, Putin knows no one will stop him.
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    At times like this, we could use a world leader like this.
    anataman
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    I don't know anything about this and think it's none of the USA's business. They certainly can't appeal to the Monroe Doctrine on this one.

    I do suspect that many Russians have historically seen the Crimean warm water ports on the Black Sea as ports belonging to Russia for centuries. Perhaps the Sovietization of Russia and Eastern Europe rather complicated things —especially in the crumbling of the Soviet Union 25 years ago now.

    But one thing I do know, this sort of land grabbing goes on all the time. There's a lot of bad blood in real estate and a lot of shenanigans too. If the injured parties were allowed to hire militias rather than resorting to spending all their moneys on attorneys, the world would be a very bloody place, indeed.

    I don't think the Buddha would have concerned himself with this one. One really has to choose ones battles wisely, he would say, I think.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Ukraine means 'borderlands' I believe.

    I would suggest everyone exercise restraint; I am impressed that so far a shot has not been fired in Ukraine despite the revolution, but someone is going to overstep the mark, and someone is probably going to die. Perhaps, this can be solved amicably. But the rest of the world really doesn't need to get involved as that will mean potential catastrophe. Hell it was part of Russia 60 years ago, and has been the site of historical conflict more than once in the last century.

    This is a local issue (40% Russians I am informed by the trusted BBC), and it should remain local, but of course our governments can offer advice.

    Russia is going to secure its interests, rest assured, what are the underlying European, Asian and American interests.

    The borders: that is where things unfold.

    Puja anyone?

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