Mushin and Mindfulness

Seph

Are Zen's Mushin and Mindfulness compatible?

Mushin would seem to share (only certain) traits with Mindlessness. (The primary difference that I can see is one of deliberation. Mindlessness is incidental. It isn't chosen. It may very well be a sort of default, whereas Mushin is deliberate - or at least attempted).

seeker242

Depends on what you think "mindfulness" is and what you think "mushin" is and whether or not your understanding of those terms are correct. Seems to me they are not entirely correct. Correctly interpreted they are definitely compatible. How do you define "mushin"? How do you define "mindfulness"?

Seph

seeker242 said:

Depends on what you think "mindfulness" is and what you think "mushin" is and whether or not your understanding of those terms are correct. Seems to me they are not entirely correct. Correctly interpreted they are definitely compatible. How do you define "mushin"? How do you define "mindfulness"?

There's not easy nor simple concepts to explain. (Not that I necessarily have the greatest understandings of them).
Let me get back to you on this one. I do have ideas/definitions (;psse)

Seph

seeker242 said:

Depends on what you think "mindfulness" is and what you think "mushin" is and whether or not your understanding of those terms are correct. Seems to me they are not entirely correct. Correctly interpreted they are definitely compatible. How do you define "mushin"? How do you define "mindfulness"?

Before I attempt to briefly define what I understand these things to be, allow me to preempt my own definitions by saying, volumes of books can be read or written on these topics. People can (and have!) dedicated their entire lives understanding and mastering these – topics? Precepts?.
I'm attempting to define these things in a few short paragraphs. It should be obvious they will be lacking.


Mindlessness:

Most of the time, our minds function by generating a constant swirl of remarks and judgements that create a barrier of words and images that separate us from our own lives. This mental condition is called mindlessness and makes it difficult to be mindful, or attentive, to the experiences of our lives.

Most of the time, most of us exist in mindlessness, a state of semi awareness governed by habit and inattention. Most of our daily lives are essentially governed by routine.
Have you ever driven home from work, for example, only to arrive at home, not remembering the actual drive home?

The great value of these habits is that they free our minds to do other things; we do these things without having to expend precious energy trying to make up our minds. The bad thing is what we ultimately do with our minds during these time. ** Unfortunately, the freedom such routines afford the mind is not well used. If they find a moment when complete attentiveness to the present is not demanded, our minds tend to gravitate to one of two places: the past or the future. Your thoughts may alternate between past and future, but they will tend to avoid the present as much as possible. If you pay attention to your ordinary thought processes, you will discover that you probably spend very little time living in the present.

Mindfulness:

Mindfulness is moment-by-moment awareness; it is the process of attentively observing your experience as it unfolds. Mindfulness allows us to become keep observers of ourselves and gradually transform the way our minds operate. With sustained practice, mindfulness can make us more attentive to our experience and less captive to the whims that drive our minds.

Mushin:

“No mind” in Japanese.
When you do something, you have to concentrate to do it the first time, and the 2nd time; 3rd time, 4th time, and the 10th time, but eventually you can perform the activity without thought; the same way you would dial a telephone number you've dialled a thousand times. Ultimately, the goal is not to have to concentrate, to be able to perform the task with “no mind”. This is how the mind is cleared and readied for enlightenment. This is Mushin.


** This very act of writing (typing?) these definitions out caught my attention. At this point (the double asterix) potentially could be the point where Mushin comes into 'play' – at the 'what do we do with this “mindlessness” state.

seeker242

I would definitely agree with your definition of "mindlesness". But not entirely with the definition of mindfulness, at least from a Buddhist perspective. Mindfulness in Buddhism is more than just a moment to moment awareness. This is the best explanation I have ever seen of "mindfulness"



Now "mushin" I would say does not mean "no mind" literally speaking. It doesn't mean no thinking or no thoughts either. What you are describing is technically "fushiryo" rather than "hishiryo" AKA "mushin".

This here gives a good description between the two: http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html

And some comments about mushin:

It is a serious mistake in the understanding of Zen to refer merely to the "denial" or "cessation" of "conceptual thinking." Regardless of whether or not it can be proven than the pre-Buddhist Sanskrit etymology of the term Dhyana can be shown to have no-thought connotations, the main concern here is the semantic development undergone by the Chinese term ch'an in the course of the production of the Ch'an texts in East Asia.

It is quite clear that in Ch'an Buddhism, no-mind, rather than referring to an absence of thought, refers to the condition of not being trapped in thoughts, not adhering to a certain conceptual habit or position.

The error of interpretation made by many scholars (and by Zen practitioners as well) lies precisely in taking the term "no-thought" to refer to some kind of permanent, or ongoing absence of thought. While this assumption is routinely made, it is impossible to corroborate it in the Ch'an canon. If we study the seminal texts carefully, we do find a description of the experience of an instantaneous severing of thought that occurs in the course of a thoroughgoing pursuit of a Buddhist meditative exercise.

Nowhere in the Platform Sutra, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, Diamond Sutra, or any other major Ch'an text, is the term "no-mind" explained to be a permanent incapacitation of the thinking faculty or the permanent cessation of all conceptual activity.

The locus classicus for the concept of no-thought is the Platform Sutra, and in regards to no-thought says in so many words:


"No-thought" means "no-thought within thought." Non-abiding is man's original nature. Thoughts do not stop from moment to moment. The prior thought is succeeded in each moment by the subsequent thought, and thoughts continue one after another without cease. If, for one thought-moment, there is a break, the dharma-body separates from the physical body, and in the midst of successive thoughts there will be no attachment to any kind of matter. If, for one thought-moment, there is abiding, then there will be abiding in all successive thoughts, and this is called clinging. If, in regard to all matters there is no abiding from thought-moment to thought-moment, then there is no clinging. Non-abiding is the basis.

As we can see, after the break in thought, successive thoughts continue to flow, but one no longer abides in, or clings to, these thoughts. Nowhere is there mention of any kind of disappearance of, or absence of thought. "No-thought" refers to nothing other than an absence of abiding, or clinging."

Seph

seeker242 said:

I would definitely agree with your definition of "mindlesness". But not entirely with the definition of mindfulness, at least from a Buddhist perspective. Mindfulness in Buddhism is more than just a moment to moment awareness. This is the best explanation I have ever seen of "mindfulness"



Now "mushin" I would say does not mean "no mind" literally speaking. It doesn't mean no thinking or no thoughts either. What you are describing is technically "fushiryo" rather than "hishiryo" AKA "mushin".

This here gives a good description between the two: http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html

And some comments about mushin:

It is a serious mistake in the understanding of Zen to refer merely to the "denial" or "cessation" of "conceptual thinking." Regardless of whether or not it can be proven than the pre-Buddhist Sanskrit etymology of the term Dhyana can be shown to have no-thought connotations, the main concern here is the semantic development undergone by the Chinese term ch'an in the course of the production of the Ch'an texts in East Asia.

It is quite clear that in Ch'an Buddhism, no-mind, rather than referring to an absence of thought, refers to the condition of not being trapped in thoughts, not adhering to a certain conceptual habit or position.

The error of interpretation made by many scholars (and by Zen practitioners as well) lies precisely in taking the term "no-thought" to refer to some kind of permanent, or ongoing absence of thought. While this assumption is routinely made, it is impossible to corroborate it in the Ch'an canon. If we study the seminal texts carefully, we do find a description of the experience of an instantaneous severing of thought that occurs in the course of a thoroughgoing pursuit of a Buddhist meditative exercise.

Nowhere in the Platform Sutra, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, Diamond Sutra, or any other major Ch'an text, is the term "no-mind" explained to be a permanent incapacitation of the thinking faculty or the permanent cessation of all conceptual activity.

The locus classicus for the concept of no-thought is the Platform Sutra, and in regards to no-thought says in so many words:


"No-thought" means "no-thought within thought." Non-abiding is man's original nature. Thoughts do not stop from moment to moment. The prior thought is succeeded in each moment by the subsequent thought, and thoughts continue one after another without cease. If, for one thought-moment, there is a break, the dharma-body separates from the physical body, and in the midst of successive thoughts there will be no attachment to any kind of matter. If, for one thought-moment, there is abiding, then there will be abiding in all successive thoughts, and this is called clinging. If, in regard to all matters there is no abiding from thought-moment to thought-moment, then there is no clinging. Non-abiding is the basis.

As we can see, after the break in thought, successive thoughts continue to flow, but one no longer abides in, or clings to, these thoughts. Nowhere is there mention of any kind of disappearance of, or absence of thought. "No-thought" refers to nothing other than an absence of abiding, or clinging."

This is awesome. This is the kind of things I am interested in hearing.
(You'll have to give me some time read/digest all this, please).
Thanks!

Seph

seeker242 said:

It is quite clear that in Ch'an Buddhism, no-mind... refers to the condition of not being trapped in thoughts, not adhering to a certain conceptual habit or position.

This sounds alot like Mindfulness, as I understand it.

Invincible_summer

IMO the idea of mushin is different from mindfulness.

I understand mindfulness to be a conscious act of becoming an objective observer of sensations, thoughts, emotions, etc in order to see the three marks of existence (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-self) in them.

Mushin seems to be more Daoist influenced - being objective and not clinging to views in order to go with the flow of life and reduce one's suffering. versus intending to understand the three marks of existence. However, I think it's entirely possible to come to understand existence through mushin - it just doesn't sound like the intended outcome.

seeker242

Personally, I think mushin is a description of the result of understanding the 3 marks. Because essentially mushin means not clinging. And if you are not clinging, well then you don't have any suffering to be rid of to begin with.

Although, at least in Soto zen, shikantaza is the practice of mushin but ultimately there is no distinction made between practice vs enlightenment. If we are practicing Shikantaza (mushin) correctly, then we are practicing Enlightenment itself. Which is not any different than how an enlightened person sees things. An enlightened person naturally and effortlessly abides in mushin continuously. While a deluded person enters into it during shikantaza and perhaps comes out of it, then reenters it and comes back out. With the point being that when "in it" it's not any different from enlightenment itself.

sova

How happily auspicious! This evening when reading about the aggregates I was briefly reflecting on perception and it's beautiful and fascinating and mind blowing to attempt to comprehend that we can recognize blue and red and black and shiny and hazy without thinking.

So, as a Japanese scholar (well, a real amateur but I've been at it for a bit now) I thought I'd search the internet for any explanations of "Mushin"

無心とは

and I found a loverly article on dauma.or.jp Here is a little bit of what I have rendered into English thusfar:

(from http://www.daruma.or.jp/zen/detail.html?zen_id=37 )

無心とは心が無い空虚状態ではない。良寛和尚が「花無心にして蝶を招く」の句を示されたように大自然のありのままの生き生きとした姿に
“それ”はある。

mushin [t.n.: also readable as "mushim" ] is not a condition in which there is no mind in a [dead] vapid space/expanse.
In the words of Ryokan, "Flowers, mushin-ly, beckon the butterfly" [flowers, naturally, with no extra or perturbing effort, call to the butterfly.] Saying that it is "that" quality, freshly living essence, present in Great Nature.



Maybe that can elucidate this makeshift koan:

Student: what is Mushin??
Master: ... mushin is... Red.

Student comes back a week later and hands the master a red apple
Student: is the apple mushin?

Master simply takes a bite.


Mushin would seem to imply an effortlessness. Of course, we have habits and patterns and conditioning, sometimes we say "karma" .. and in order to unveil the view from which effortlessness simply naturally Mushins itself, like how the flower naturally and effortlessly dances the dance of the butterfly, we must wash away our delusion and obstructions with the nectar of the dharma.


The article on Mushin at daruma.or.jp goes on to say .. the common of the mountain, the common of the tree, the common of the river and the insect and the flower. May we bear witness to that natural Great Nature common to all life! May we let it shine brightly! [to paraphrase]

Seph

Wow! Alot of material to absorb!
(Awesome!)

sova said:

無心とは心が無い空虚状態ではない。良寛和尚が「花無心にして蝶を招く」の句を示されたように大自然のありのままの生き生きとした姿に
“それ”はある。

mushin [t.n.: also readable as "mushim" ] is not a condition in which there is no mind in a [dead] vapid space/expanse.
In the words of Ryokan, "Flowers, mushin-ly, beckon the butterfly" [flowers, naturally, with no extra or perturbing effort, call to the butterfly.] Saying that it is "that" quality, freshly living essence, present in Great Nature.

This sounds alot like Taoism's Wu Wei. (action without action).

I'm looking forward to read all this in much more detail!

Seph

(from http://www.daruma.or.jp/zen/detail.html?zen_id=37 )

Wow. This page doesn't translate into English very well.

Blondel

In the treatise On No-Mind attributed to Bodhidharma the term no-mind is never meant nor intended to leave us with the impression that no-mind is against direct intuition or awakening to something transcendent. A more pithy meaning for no-mind is "no discriminating mind." Such a no discriminating mind is the same as True Mind. In fact the treatise says: "Indeed, no-mind is nothing other than true mind. And true mind is nothing other than no-mind" (trans. App). Further on the treatise says: "What is called no-mind is nothing other than a mind free from deluded thought” (trans. App).

seeker242

@Seph said:
Wow! Alot of material to absorb!
(Awesome!)

This sounds alot like Taoism's Wu Wei. (action without action).

I'm looking forward to read all this in much more detail!

The old masters were quite fond of Wuwei

Contemporary Korean Zen Master Kusan Sunim writes in his book "The Way of Korean Zen"

"When deluded people look inside themselves, they will find
there are things to be cultivated and to be gained.
Therefore, they make a great effort to practice. But as soon
as they have completed what they set out to do, they realize
that there was nothing really to have been done. Thus, the
true Dharma involves non-doing. All things that are done will
finally cease. Thus the Dharma of doing is the false
Dharma. But everything that you do-which, in reality, is
non-doing- constitutes eternal truth. Such actions will not
cease even though you attempt to be finished with them.
This is the truth of the unborn and undestroyed.

Therefore, all the Buddhas of the three times, all the
patriarchs, the bodhisattvas, and the spiritual advisors of the
present age have expounded and are expounding the
Dharma that is no Dharma. If someone claims that
something was said, this would be mistaken.

In this world all people look for the Dharma of doing, that
is, for some thing. But the true Dharma is to look for the
Dharma of non-doing. This is truly extraordinary."

Some people like to interpret this as "there is nothing to do" not even practice. What is interesting though is this is from a talk he gave while he was leading a 3 month intensive meditation retreat.

and then in the reference section

Non-doing (C. wuwei). Originally a Taoist term; used to
translate the Buddhist concept of the "unconditioned";
here, it is used to refer to the non-attached actions of
an enlightened being.

sova

Mental non-doing,
this understanding is
in accord with the tradition of Mahamudra

breathe stable belly breaths and moisten your mind with compassion

for there is so much suffeing

"non-discriminating mind" is a great translation.

unelaborated,

grow your compassion and weep

truly become a suitable vessel for the Dharma

sova

"The method of no method"

http://www.shambhala.com/sale/the-method-of-no-method.html

Invincible_summer

@seeker242 said:
Personally, I think mushin is a description of the result of understanding the 3 marks. Because essentially mushin means not clinging. And if you are not clinging, well then you don't have any suffering to be rid of to begin with.

Although, at least in Soto zen, shikantaza is the practice of mushin but ultimately there is no distinction made between practice vs enlightenment. If we are practicing Shikantaza (mushin) correctly, then we are practicing Enlightenment itself. Which is not any different than how an enlightened person sees things. An enlightened person naturally and effortlessly abides in mushin continuously. While a deluded person enters into it during shikantaza and perhaps comes out of it, then reenters it and comes back out. With the point being that when "in it" it's not any different from enlightenment itself.

So then, mushin is a result, whereas mindfulness is a practice.

pegembara

The truth is : to use-only, to experience-only, not to reject, not to be attached.

You should not forget the truth: to use-only, to experience-only, to do-only.

Whatever you do, don’t forget the truth of do-only, not to be attached.

Not to be attached means that if you pay attention to your actions, there is attachment. If you are interested in what is happening, in what you are doing, there is attachment. If you are interested in what is happening to you, there is attachment.

Not to be attached, not to reject also; to use-only, to experience-only.

Pay attention to the truth : to use-only, to experience-only.

Ottamasara