Kadampa Group

twobitbob

Hey guys, hope everyone's well.

Just looking for a little advice. I started going to a Kadampa meditation group and i was just wondering if anyone had any experience of the group. They're all very nice people and i like the teachings (heavy emphasis on cultivating compassion towards others). Only thing is i asked if the noble eightfold path was ever taught, as it had not yet been mentioned in the classes i had attended. One teacher had never heard of it while another had heard of it but didn't know the particulars. Just wondering what i should make of this; i do think they teach the 8-fold path, just not explicitly.

federica

I have no direct experience or anecdotal evidence of anything to do with Kadampa.... But to not be able to immediately discuss the fundamental basic teaching (the first subject, of his first sermon in Deer Park) of The Eightfold Path......?!?

Walk away.....!

Simonthepilgrim

Many people have problems with NKT. The Office of the Dalai Lama have issued statements about it and there have been alleged attempts on HHDL's life. In some NKT venues, HHDL is 'cursed' by name - not my sort of Buddhism. I, too, have attended NKT 'meditation' classes. They were more like Methodist house-groups than anything else.

Brigid

I've read about the problems with New Kadampa as well. But even if this group you're going to doesn't have any of the problems I've read about I would seriously wonder what they were doing teaching Buddhism when they didn't know what the Noble Eightfold Path is. That IS Buddhism. It's a little like teaching Christianity without ever having heard of Jesus. Teaching Buddhism without having heard of The Noble Eightfold Path goes way beyond the realm of the ridiculous and well into the realm of the absurd.

Simonthepilgrim

I began to get worried when, at the second, "Meditation class", our charming leader said, "I'm not terribly good at meditation myself....."

Brigid

Oh, my! lol!!

Ejoty

I have been going to NKT meditation classes for quite awile.
Alas, I have not had the problem of the teacher not knowing the noble eightfold path or admit that they were always bad at meditation.
Was the teaching from a Monk/Nun or was it a common person?
What I will say is that I know that if a person goes to a class outside of the actual local temple, the teacher is nothing more then a student themselves. All it takes is to be a very committed student with the will to take some "teaching classes" to become a teacher and as some know in regards to even teaching school children, the teacher could always trick their way into the title.

But, like what Fedrica says, walking away would be a good idea.

twobitbob

I went to a different Kadampa class ( there's loads of them in London) and asked the same questions. The answer I got this time was The 4 noble truths are taught but the eightfold path is not. Hmm... strange. The reason given is that the teaching follows a lineage and if not taught by the head monk then students would not go outside to supplement their learning - to keep the lineage pure. They also said that the 8 fold path is mainly a Theravaden teaching, and Kadampa, being Mahayanan does not focus so much on it.

I'm not sure what the other problems that have been alluded to are, but i do find the group very respectful, approachable and just overall decent people. But what are they teaching? Is it Buddhism? Omissions aside it does sound like buddhism.

There is one particular teaching they gave that struck a chord with me, describing the roots of suffering as a tree. The roots are self-grasping, the trunk self-cherishing. The two main branches of the tree are anger and attachment which unfold into 84,000 delusions that cause suffering. This is a buddhist teaching, right?

Thanks for your help guys.

Palzang

I feel it should be pointed out that in Tibetan Buddhism (and Mahayana in general) the eightfold path is condensed into the six paramitas, so it is not beyond belief that someone would not be familiar with the eightfold path. While there are definitely problems with the NKT and its leader, you have to use your own judgment ultimately.

Palzang

zenmonk_genryu

I think that not being aware of the Eightfold Path, regardless of tradition is certainly not a healthy sign.

Palzang

It certainly does say something about who the NKT allows to teach! Who's teaching the teacher?

Palzang

fofoo

To be honest,I know not much about them. But the DBU, that is an organization of all traditional branches of Buddhism in Germany,refused their membership. . Same in Austria. So if you look for authorative statemtents, you should ask the umbrella group of Buddhist traditions in your country, if such a thing exists. Hope this was helpful.

twobitbob

O.K. So now i'm interested - what is this problem with NKT that everyone's been alluding to? Given their lack of knowledge on certain aspects of the path i'm assuming it's something to do with the doctrine they teach?

It's a shame, they are a nice bunch of people. But it's buddhism i want to learn. Right, where's the nearest zen centre?

federica

Well, anyone who encourages the assassination of HH the DL is not too good in my books, straight off.....

Palzang

2bitbob,

It has to do with a rather arcane practice that the NKT persists in after the Dalai Lama forbid it to be done anymore. It's called Dorje Shugden, and it is a protector practice. Unfortunately, part of the practice is to invoke Dorje Shugden to suppress other lineages, which is not exactly what you would call consistent with the Buddhist model. That's why the Dalai Lama forbid it. Geshe Kelsang, the leader of the NKT, ignored the Dalai Lama and continued to practice it, indeed, to champion it, which led to his expulsion from the monastery where he was (I forget which) and the resultant schism between the main Gelugpa lineage and his renegade one. It has gotten very ugly at times with demonstrations against His Holiness and the murder of two senior teachers of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala some years ago, presumably by NKT supporters. Not a pretty picture. I've heard it said that Dorje Shugden, who, unlike most protectors, was an actual person who became a protector, is demonic, but I'll leave you to figure out what that means.

Palzang

buddhafoot

Does anyone here really know if there is a difference in teaching or recognition of the Eightfold Path with Theravaden -vs- Mahayanan?

That's interesting. I would have thought teachings as simple as the Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths would have been basic enough to span any sect of Buddhism.

Kind of like saying, "Well, that's the difference between Catholic Christians and our new form of Christianity called Baspoofon. While Catholics believe in a Christ - we, Baspoofon Christians don't believe in a Christ."

-bf

fofoo

bf,

from my understanding, in mahayana compassion and salvation of all beings are more emphazized. You see, Theravada is more like an old school teacher who urges you to take rather big steps now and here to attain your own salvation. It is not that it would be without compassion at all, but if compasion leads to craving and therefore hinders your own salvation, it should be given up/reduced.Mahayana appears much warmer and focused on compassion, transfer of merit thru bodhisattvas and so on. From what I can see, loving kindness and compassion are the major themes of many mahayana sects. I could be wrong, it is just what I observed thru time, and only with the sects here in Germany.

The eightfold path and the four noble truth are central to both, it is more a matter of priority.

buddhafoot

Thanks fofoo....

But, do you know if it is typical for one group not to know of or acknowledge the Four and the Eight - while the other does?

I'm just wondering why one sect might not give such a basic teaching much or any credit. :scratch:

-bf

fofoo

I am not an expert on Tibetan Buddhism, but there exist a lot of esoteric teachings.They transmit the Buddhadhamma in esoterical ways, I would not be shocked if some do not mention the 4 and the 8 much or at all. But I don`t know about that, since they are esoteric.

Every mainstream version of Buddhism, non-esoteric directed for the masses should imo have a central place for the 4 nd 8

buddhafoot

It is interesting that, as Fede pointed out, the first subject of his first talk - after his enlightenment and seeing the world in a whole new way - and contemplating on if he should even share this with others - I would think how an enlightened person would initially engage others would be very weighty and thought out.

I would expect the Buddha on his enlightenment to start a discourse with the world discussing trivial matters.

The Four and the Eight were his foundation when he first opened his mouth to spread the word of what he had found.

I would think it would bear some credence in any form of Buddhism one follows.

-bf

fofoo

I am not disagreeing but I also would not argue against any form of traditional tantric/esoteric Buddhism that might appear strange for outsiders. The argument could be for instance, they transmit the same thru other means, i.e. are not literalists.

You see, I am not the one to judge what is Buddhism(TM) Anyone who is new to Buddhism does best to look for a traditional branch imo. Additionally, at least in Germany it is settled with a membership in the DBU. Wether esoteric or not, to be member there you must acknolwedge certain things,elsewise they will not let you in. Things are acknowledgement of the 3 refuges, the 4 noble truths, the 3 characteristics of existence, unitiy of all Buddhists, acceptance of the 5 precepts and the promise to look after the well being for others.

Palzang

As I said recently elsewhere (somewhere), the Eightfold Path is often expressed as the 6 paramitas in Mahayana Buddhism. That does not mean, however, that we ignore the Eightfold Path. It was certainly covered in the basic teachings I received in both the Kagyu and Nyingma traditions, as, of course, are the Four Noble Truths. While we consider both important, the Four Noble Truths are studied constantly while the Eightfold Path is more folded into other teachings on compassion, mindfulness, and so forth. Certainly I would say there is no excuse for someone who is purportedly a teacher of Buddhism to new practitioners not to know of or teach it, regardless of the tradition they're in.

Palzang

twobitbob

Right...

When you guys mentioned a few problems i thought on the lines of maybe being a bit rude sometimes or getting teachings mixed up.

But wanting to kill? HHDL? That's pretty hardcore. I might just back away slowly to the door.

Palzang

Yeah, good idea. Best not to go looking for trouble, I always say!

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim

But do not take our word for it.

Do your own research.

There is plenty on the Net, on both sides.

This is from HHDL's website:
http://www.dalailama.com/page.132.htm

Since the 1970s, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has consistently and patiently discouraged Tibetan Buddhists from practicing or propitiating the Dholgyal (Shugden) spirit. The discouraging of the propitiation of Dholgyal lies in the interest of the Tibetan people in general and the Buddha Dharma in particular. It is a spiritual endeavour started from the time of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama (1617-1682) and carried on through the ages by Tibet’s most accomplished masters. Provided herein, are information on why His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama has taken to discourage the practice and propitiation of Dholgyal.

There are three articles about it linked here:
http://www.cesnur.org/testi/NKT.htm

And a long Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Kadampa_Tradition

Don't take our word for it, I repeat!

Palzang

Well, Simon, I'm not biased one way or the other. I've actually read one or two of Geshe Kelzang's books, particularly his book on Shantideva, and found it quite useful. I think it's a pity that such a situation exists, that's all. (BTW, the Wikipedia article said basically what I did except in more detail).

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim

I agree with you entirely, Palzang. My post aimed at something more than the matter of the NKT, a 'sect' whose cultish aspects make me extremely wary. I am, however, aware that there are many NKT followers and thought that Twobitbob or any other enquirerneeds more than our potentially biased view. The Wikipedia article links to a debate which can be useful, too.

not1not2

I haven't really looked very much into this site, but I believe it is run by some ex-NKT's & should give you a pretty big rundown of the problems people have with the tradition.

http://www.newkadampa.com/

_/\_
metta

Palzang

OK, I see your point, Simon. I really try not to dwell on Buddhist "scandals" as they can only detract from one's practice. However, when someone who doesn't know encounters a group like this, I feel compelled to at least warn them. We also have one in Sedona called "The Church of Shambhala" whose leader claims to be a tulku (an incarnation of Buddha Maitreya, of course) and whose followers wear robes just like ours. Of course, they hold no vows, wear jewelry, drink, smoke, have families (on one bizarre occasion, a whole family of them showed up at one of our empowerments wearing robes, including young kids!). It's very confusing for locals who don't know the difference (how could they?). The leader has a long history of scams, and their number two dude is someone who styles himself as "Archangel Michael", wears robes, of course, and has very long hair and beard! Their philosophy is much more New Age mishmash than anything Buddhist. I try to steer people clear of them without being derogatory. At least make them aware they're not Buddhist by any stretch of the imagination! So it's very difficult to navigate the troubled waters of spirituality in these times!

Palzang

Will

Two other not so small points: Kelsang Gyatso is not a Geshe and he was formally booted out of Sera monastery.

Do not ask for chapter & verse; but somewhere in the large corpus of writings about NKT those facts were stated.

There is also a new site started just to address the problems with NKT: http://newkadampa.com

Simonthepilgrim

Palzang wrote:

OK, I see your point, Simon. I really try not to dwell on Buddhist "scandals" as they can only detract from one's practice. However, when someone who doesn't know encounters a group like this, I feel compelled to at least warn them. We also have one in Sedona called "The Church of Shambhala" whose leader claims to be a tulku (an incarnation of Buddha Maitreya, of course) and whose followers wear robes just like ours. Of course, they hold no vows, wear jewelry, drink, smoke, have families (on one bizarre occasion, a whole family of them showed up at one of our empowerments wearing robes, including young kids!). It's very confusing for locals who don't know the difference (how could they?). The leader has a long history of scams, and their number two dude is someone who styles himself as "Archangel Michael", wears robes, of course, and has very long hair and beard! Their philosophy is much more New Age mishmash than anything Buddhist. I try to steer people clear of them without being derogatory. At least make them aware they're not Buddhist by any stretch of the imagination! So it's very difficult to navigate the troubled waters of spirituality in these times!

Palzang

It really does suggest that religious education in our schools and colleges is seriously defective. These are the sort of communities which make the whole NRM phenomenon so iffy.

Iawa

twobitbob wrote:

Hey guys, hope everyone's well.

Just looking for a little advice. I started going to a Kadampa meditation group and i was just wondering if anyone had any experience of the group. They're all very nice people and i like the teachings (heavy emphasis on cultivating compassion towards others). Only thing is i asked if the noble eightfold path was ever taught, as it had not yet been mentioned in the classes i had attended. One teacher had never heard of it while another had heard of it but didn't know the particulars. Just wondering what i should make of this; i do think they teach the 8-fold path, just not explicitly.

Don't know there of.

Palzang

Well, KG still thinks he's a geshe! Anyway, sorry, but I don't really keep up with the drama of NKT. Got better things to do frankly. Like sleep or something...

Palzang

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim wrote:

It really does suggest that religious education in our schools and colleges is seriously defective. These are the sort of communities which make the whole NRM phenomenon so iffy.

OK, I'll bite - what's an NRM?

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim

Palzang wrote:

OK, I'll bite - what's an NRM?

Palzang

Sorry. "New Religious Movement", a term which some of us prefer to the word "cult" which we apply to those NRMs with specific characteristics. The NKT is seen as a NRM and, even, as a cult by many commentators. Not all NRMs are cults but the majority of cults are NRM in character.

Palzang

Aha. I guess that's a PC way of putting it! I don't know if I'd call it an NRM or not. It's not really new, and schisms aren't either. I guess if I was backed into a corner and had to put a label on it I'd call it "demonic activity", but what's in a name? :rarr:

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim

Palzang wrote:

Aha. I guess that's a PC way of putting it! I don't know if I'd call it an NRM or not. It's not really new, and schisms aren't either. I guess if I was backed into a corner and had to put a label on it I'd call it "demonic activity", but what's in a name? :rarr:

Palzang

That reminds me, Palzang. It's a whole week since we had an argument..... sorry, discussion..... about superstition..... LOL

Magwang

twobitbob wrote:

... the teaching follows a lineage and if not taught by the head monk then students would not go outside to supplement their learning - to keep the lineage pure ...

I have never understood the importance this lineage thing. To me, it sort of undermines Right Effort.

The 8-fold path has changed my life radically. I seriously doubt the teacher's lineage will make a difference to me. Especially one where a "qualified" meditiation teacher doesn't like to meditate and the pi$$es on the entire southern school of Buddhism.


But then, I have chosen a very lonely path and have not spend much time witha a sangha...except for you guys *sniff*

Simonthepilgrim

Palzang wrote:

Aha. I guess that's a PC way of putting it! I don't know if I'd call it an NRM or not. It's not really new, and schisms aren't either. I guess if I was backed into a corner and had to put a label on it I'd call it "demonic activity", but what's in a name? :rarr:

Palzang

"Politically correct" insofar as it takes us towards the correct political outcome which is to be able to understand the modern socio/religious phenomena and to distinguish those that are abusive and coercive, which we term 'cults', and which are a subset of the new religious movements. Both from the point of view of accurate sociological description and of achieving social harmonious respect, the distinction is crucial.

Within your own tradition, new lineages arose, ever since Guru Rinpoche and before. Distinguishing the skillful from the rest is a tough task and any intellectual tools, such as clear language, as well as spiritual, such as out teachers and the Dharma, seem welcome.

(Sorry if your post was meant to be light-hearted, dear friend. I am in something of a sombre mood, perhaps. My latest detective story is taking me into dark places and I have reached that point where the characters take on a life of their own. And it always ends up with my seeing some aspect of myself that I "recognise for the first time" - which doesn't meant that I necessarily like what I see)

Palzang

Yes, well, I'd call it a schism rather than a new lineage. That's more than just semantics because a new lineage, such as my lineage, Palyul, is founded on new teachings, not some kind of theological(?) dispute. Palyul, for example, was founded on the terma (hidden treasure) revelations of Migyur Dorje, so while they're new teachings, they're directly connected to and draw from the previous Nyingma teachings (as well as Kagyu). The NKT, on the other hand, was founded by a renegade monk who didn't feel like following his teachers' instructions. A little difference, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, I never discuss superstitions when Mercury is retrograde. Bad luck. What? Mercury went direct a week ago?! Well, have at it then!

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim

I like the distinction, Palzang. Indeed, I was overlooking the function of schism. Odd for a student of Christianity when its history abounds in schisms!

There are so many terms for the separations, splits, renewals, inventions and what-have-yous. And so many of them have critical overtones. Diversity often comes at the price of bitterness and strife, just like any birth.

Iawa

I have a new tradition as well, I call it thinking for myself.

Palzang

Wadda,

I could really care less what anybody practices, but when it comes to murdering spiritual teachers, I have to draw the line. That's a little different than "religious freedom", wouldn't you say? Also, you claim we're being negative, and then go on to trash the Dalai Lama! A little hypocritical, eh?

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim

wadda wrote:

everything in this thread is pretty much regurgetated hearsay and speculation

Welcome, Wadda. Please let us have links to the other side of the story. As I said earlier, we have a duty to examine the facts for ourselves.

not1not2

Dear wadda,

I understand you take a lot of heat for being a NKT practitioner, but you really need to cough up some info, not just imply that everything against you guys is politically motivated.

So, how do you justify reifying a worldly Deity within the teachings of Tibetan Buddhism? Also, how do you reconcile the exclusivist teachings within your tradition that comes with Shugden practice?

_/\_
metta

twobitbob

Hi Wadda, nice to see the other side of the story.

Like i said before, i found the people leading the group very approachable and friendly. Concerns were roused by the lack of knowledge regarding the 4 noble truths - the 8-fold path in particular. Whilst i enjoyed the teachings i did receive it is the 4 and the 8 i really want to get to grips with.

I admit i haven't reviewed the evidence myself, but my decision not to attend further is based on the lack of these teachings. The rest may well be hearsay, but i have come to trust the intentions of most of the people on this forum. It would be good if you could provide some more info on the topic so a more balanced discussion could be had.

fofoo

just a sidenote:

that the DBU rejected their membership is not hearsay. It is fact. Same for Austria. It`s in the wikipedia article. You can look it up. If that does not bother you, go ahead.

Regards

not1not2

The following was posted on another forum. Access to this thread is restricted, so I can't link. Still, I think it would be nice if Wadda (or anyone else) could respond to these points:

• The way of life of NKT monks and nuns is quite different to monks and nuns of other traditions because they live in mixed Dharma communities with lay people, and not in single sex monasteries and nunneries, and they also work in society to support themselves.

• There are two Vinaya Ordination lineages in the Sanskrit Tradition of Buddhism on which the Mahayana is based: the Mahasanghika lineage and the Mulasarvastavadin lineage. Kelsang Gyatso belongs to the Mulasarvastavadin lineage and is bound to that lineage in which monks and nuns receive either 36 (novice monk/nun - tib. Getsul) or 253 (fully ordained monk - tib. Gelong, pali Bikkhu) vows.

However Geshe Kelsang only gives 10 vows and grant an ordination which is not according to his own lineage. Also in the Mulasarvastavadin lineage there have to be minimum 5 full ordained monks which should be present when Ordination is granted but this is not the case because NKT has fewer than 5 fully ordained monks and invite no other full ordained monks for that.

• By creating an own Vinaya system NKT has given up the Vinaya - the root of the doctrine - as taught by the Buddha Shakyamuni. Especially Atisha and Tsongkhapa revived and emphasised the traditional monastic vows taught in the Vinaya of the Buddha very much. If NKT does not follow these teachings of the Vinaya how then they can claim to be a "complete path" following the "pure teachings" of Buddha Shakyamuni, Atisha and Tsongkhpa?

• Ordination

The New Kadampa ordination is different to that followed by monks and nuns in the Tibetan tradition and this has caused some controversy. NKT monks and nuns receive 10 vows from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. NKT are honest about the fact that an ordained life is very different in the West because, according to the NKT, some of the Vinaya rules are not appropriate in Western society.

The way of life of NKT monks and nuns is quite different to monks and nuns of other traditions because they live in mixed Dharma communities with lay people, and not in single sex monasteries and nunneries, and they also work in society to support themselves.

"If we accept that as religions move from culture to culture they will always be imbued with adaptations that suit the culture at hand, then we can see that sometimes there is a need to be flexible and to adopt new ways of behaviour."

It is with this conviction that the NKT has adopted a new code of vinaya. The ordination vows are taken with the motivation of renunciation and contain the commitment to practise the three higher training of moral discipline, concentration and wisdom. As the NKT ordination vows are rooted in the strength of one's understanding of wisdom, renunciation and Bodhicitta, their substance is seen as deriving from the Mahayana Perfection of Wisdom Sutras and Lam Rim teachings rather than from the Vinaya.

• NKT is not the Kadampa Tradition or Kadampa Buddhism as they claim to be because this lineage was absorbed into Gelug school and the other tibetan schools; there is no extra Kadampa lineage or Kadampa Tradition nowadays.

NKT deceives people if they wrongly claim this in their advertisements or name their presentation of the Dharma as "Kadampa Buddhism" and wrongly state "... is a Mahayana Buddhist school founded by the great Indian Buddhist Master Atisha (AD 982-1054)".

Sometimes Kelsang Gyatso said NKT is Gelug Tradition but then it follows that NKT is necessarily also a part of the Gelug school. They would therefore be obliged to follow the Ganden Tripa, the head of the Gelugpas -- but they do not. Also the main tantric practice in Gelug Tradition is the union of the three tantras Guhyasamaja, Heruka and Yamantaka but these are not practiced by the NKT members.

Also Buddha Shakyamuni, Je Tsongkhapa or Lord Atisha didn't even mention Dorje Shugden, the main protector practice of NKT. Je Tsongkhpa taught Mahakala, Vaishravana and Kalarupa.

From the main texts of studying in the Gelug and Kadampa School only one is taught and studied; no text of Tsongkhapa, Nagarjuna, Atisha or Asanga is studied. So NKT is neither Gelug nor Kadampa school, it is a complete new school for the west based on a variety of Gelug teachings.

• NKT claims to be a "pure tradition" and "complete lineage" but Geshe Kelsang does not pass the full range of Gelug teachings and the full range of the Vinaya vows for ordained monks and nuns in the traditional context and does not allow other fully ordained monks or nuns, Geshes, Masters or Lamas to teach in his centers - only NKT teachers can teach there.

• By creating a new ordination tradition and focusing merely on Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, his books and NKT-followers as their Buddhist Refuge NKT has split off and isolated themselves from the Buddhist Sangha Community. Through this NKT is not reachable anymore for the democratic sytem and sustaining rules of the Vinaya, taught by the Buddha which helps the ordained to correct and support each other, based on the Elder Sangha - the longtime full ordained ones, the really experienced Sangha members.

http://geshe.kelsang.gyatso.en.wikimiki.org/

_/\_

*edited for repetition*

KungaTashi

does anyone have a link to a site that has what the Dalai Lama has to say about NKT?

Simonthepilgrim

Looking for Answers wrote:

does anyone have a link to a site that has what the Dalai Lama has to say about NKT?

Try this:
http://www.dalailama.com/page.132.htm

KungaTashi

I just dropped by that link, thanks by the way Simon. I don't really see anything specific about what he might have said about NKT though. I am trying to get a grasp on the whole thing. Locally the only center that there is around here is an NKT one. Everyone I have talked to has been really nice. I have yet to go to one of their meditation classes but I plan on it to see what the whole deal is. One of the main reason I may go by there is because there is nothing else around, and it would really help my practice to meet some others in person so I can talk and learn from them. This whole Dorje Shugden thing is not my intention. My intention is to meet others that practice Buddhism, and are working to end suffering for all sentient beings.