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Baby Steps
buddhafoot
Veteran
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like this:
I find sometimes that I read various posts by quite a few of our valued members - and I must say, sometimes I'm completely lost.
I have no idea what Pali-this or Pali-that means. I have no idea of what Buddhist idea was popular in 100 BC versus a comptemporary belief of Buddhism that was popular in the 18th century. I don't know all the Suttas - I don't know a myriad of the myths or parables that are involved with all of the Buddha's lives. I don't understand how many people, some new to Buddhism, have been born enlightened enough to come up with their interpretation of how Buddha's teachings are going to work for them.
And all through the midst of this - the most basic teachings of the Buddha seem to have been thrown out the window with the bath water. We can't seem to see the forest for the trees.
If the only thing I accomplish in this life is taking the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path to heart and be able to live it - I would be most happy indeed.
I wish the same for all of you as well.
-bf
I find sometimes that I read various posts by quite a few of our valued members - and I must say, sometimes I'm completely lost.
I have no idea what Pali-this or Pali-that means. I have no idea of what Buddhist idea was popular in 100 BC versus a comptemporary belief of Buddhism that was popular in the 18th century. I don't know all the Suttas - I don't know a myriad of the myths or parables that are involved with all of the Buddha's lives. I don't understand how many people, some new to Buddhism, have been born enlightened enough to come up with their interpretation of how Buddha's teachings are going to work for them.
And all through the midst of this - the most basic teachings of the Buddha seem to have been thrown out the window with the bath water. We can't seem to see the forest for the trees.
If the only thing I accomplish in this life is taking the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path to heart and be able to live it - I would be most happy indeed.
I wish the same for all of you as well.
-bf
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Comments
I never enter to discuss, I usually just poke my head in now and then to see that folks ain't misbehavin'......
I actually think in 202 is not only talk for "leet" people. I now and then try to get people reflecting, like I did with the post on the Dhammapada, but hey, feedback is not my business. Anyways folks, if I am told not to post for a while or not at all any more, I will respect it.
I didn't write this to make anyone feel bad or self-conscience about what they post in here regarding various suttas, pali, sanskrit, etc. In fact, I think as one gets further along the Path - they will probably need to move from milk to meat. It's the process of growing.
I really feel like I probably should not have said anything - this could be my problem. We do have a Buddhism 202 and the "deeper waters" is exactly what it was made for. I know that every once in awhile I pop in there to get something a little more "substantial" to chew on.
I just don't like to see a lack of remembering the most basic teachings which bring about hurt, anger... or loss of members.
Honestly - I didn't mean this as a chatisement - I am in no position to be chastising anyone.
-bf
You raise a good point. Whenever the discussion turns too philosophical, it is difficult to keep to the basics. I'm not sure whether we are chucking babies out of anything though, but I can see where you're coming from. Philosophical discussion, when approached properly, can reveal our doubts, our misconceptions, & genuine insight into the nature of things. Often though, we get bogged down in semantics & speculation. Occassionally, we can start becoming caustic, overly intellectual, and many other negative things.
Also, it took a good 3 or 4 years of reading up on the basics before I started actually reading the suttas. Reading the technical terms in Pali & Sanksrit would make my eyes glaze over. Sometimes that still happens, though I am making efforts to get over that. And reading suttas is not very effective when this happens. But, eventually, I started venturing into areas where I was a bit vague on what the basics actually taught. I was getting into specifics in my practice, and I needed specific answers. So, I started actually reading the links to suttas that I would find in articles. I copied & pasted many articles from AccesstoInsight into Word documents. Eventually, with the help of plain English commentaries, I managed to acclamate myself to the major Pali terms, and the style of the Suttas. This has been a very slow process. I would not recommend rushing it. Still, when you get to this point, you will see that reading the Suttas themselves is something special. Knowing the Pali/Sanskrit terms gives greater shades meaning than their English translations can transmit. One thing that has also struck me is the overall consistency of the teachings, even where totally different topics are being discussed. Seeing this happen helps to erase one's doubts in the teachings. Now, I've just read the tip of the iceberg in regards to the Suttas (there are around 20,000 pages of them when translated to English. I have not even ventured into the Vinaya Pitaka or the Abhidhamma Pitaka yet & my exposure to the major Mahayana Sutras is quite limited. But I am not worried. I will read them as my practice dictates. "Slow & steady wins the race." This saying definitely applies to the Buddhist Path, imo.
Excellent! Keep that attitude. I certainly hope that I have not strayed too far from this sentiment in my studies & discussions.
Take care & be well
_/\_
metta
I was not offended in any kind. I meant it seriously, I realized that at some point, when people dig too deep into details of issues, it confuses others simply beause they are interested in unterstanding, but yet have not digged into the ideas. That makes them feel uncomfortable and they might be even more confused, lose faith and so on. That`s really all, and I am concerned of this myself when I post, so I would not be angry in any kind if told to refrain from posting into certain sections, topics or at all. I am always open too that and if I harm people with my posts, despite my intentions, I step back. So, here is the offer, generally, i do not want to take the joy out of anyone with regards to the Buddhadhamma.
regards.
One of my problems though, is that sometimes when I get stuck on something and just can't come to any clear understanding, I obsess a little over it, worry it like picking at a scab or biting my nails. I find it hard to let it go sometimes. It's a good thing I have such cute, cuddly cats to distract me. They're always telling me "It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters right now is that you cuddle me and tell me how much you love me and what a good boy I am. Oh, and I need my neck rubbed. Right there. No...there. Yes...purrfect!"
I think that's a beautiful and skillful attitude. Full of wisdom and humility. Thanks, Fofoo. You've never, ever, confused me or made me feel uncomfortable.
Not1,
That was a great post, too. You've just given me a perfect syllabus for my own studies. Thanks! I'll follow your advice. 20,000? Holy cannoli! I better get some more ink for my printer.
Thank you Brigid, that was kind
Writing even a lengthy post is never, ever, going to be a substitute for practice in my strange, disorderly life. It is an integral part of and arises from practice itself.
I love this site. I love it that I am allowed to share some of intellectual bric-a-brac that I have picked up and some of my enthusiasms. I love it for the learning and the laughter.
I notice that we have had people leave or get annoyed but I have never read anyone say that our discussions have so disillusioned them that they have abandoned practice, belief or, even, faith.
Stay as sweet as you are,
Don't let a thing
Ever change you.
Stay as sweet as you are,
Don't let a soul
Rearrange you.
Don't ever lose
All the charm you possess,
Your loveliness, darling,
The way you say "yes".
Stay as sweet as you are
Discreet as you are,
You're divine, dear.
Stay as grand as you are,
And as you are,
Tell me that you're mine, dear.
Young and gay or old and gray,
Near to me or afar,
Night and day I pray
That you'll always stay
As sweet as you are.
Young and gay or old and gray,
Near to me or afar,
Night and day I pray
That you'll always stay
As sweet as you are.
Due in no small part to the bickering and sometimes irritated tone of some posts, we have lost a member, who has made a conscious and public choice to leave the forum. Whilst the person who might be viewed as the main 'aggressor', has now been dealt with, I think it only fair to say (as was pointed out to me in a PM) that "It takes two to tango".....
BF laments that posts can become angry and thoughtless.
Elohim recently proposed setting some guidelines and signposts with regard to posting in Forum 202, and I pointed out in the same thread the reasons why we really didn't need them specifically, due to certain conditions applying across the whole Forum.
Go back and read the post.
Might it perhaps serve as a timely reminder to print out the Eightfold Path, and keep it prominent, visible and evident right next to our screens......?
The Eightfold Path is one we have all made a promise to tread. Beside one another. In companionship, Compassion, Wisdom and Love. Right Everything.
Let's Walk the Talk together. *
Now now, Simon.....
Ya see?
This is why I no longer wear leather....!
Phwoar!
To be honest the heady discussions were one of the reasons I took a bit of a break from the forum (as well as work being hectic).
I would read up on all the more advanced philosophies discussed from various different traditions. I'd then get myself all confused and bring them up at my Zen group. It was suggested that I did less worrying about what other traditions follow and just concentrated on my own practice for a while!
Anyway, like a bad penny I keep coming back to you all!!
I agree with bf. I really don't have much patience for quoting sutras and dissecting the fine points of Buddhist history or the difference between Pali and Sanskrit. What matters to me is the meaning. Whether Lord Buddha said it or the cleaning lady said it is irrelevant to me if it's true. I think (and I hope I don't offend anyone) that sutra-thumping is just another form of bible-thumping Christianity, looking for outside authority to justify your point of view. That's how Buddha is made into a god, imho, and the end result is just to enlarge ego's domain even more than before. If you find the Buddha within, there's no need to look "out there" somewhere.
Palzang
Please... I don't want anyone to take this as me saying "I'm sick of all the in-depth discussion that takes place in B202" - that's what it's there for. For people to learn more from our more learn-ed members. I honestly don't have a problem with this at all. I remember digging into the Dhammapada for the first time - it was much more difficult than just trying to realize and inject the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path into my life. But, it also provides a teaching that is associated with the Four and the Eight.
I honestly believe that part of it comes from ego. Myself included. I'm not immune to ego, skandhas, pride, etc. And... honestly, maybe I'm the only one out here that is having to deal with things like ego, skandhas and pride. I could be talking out my ass. But when disagreement leads to harsh words - the after effect is somewhat disharmonious.
I don't really know where I'm going with this post except to say that: I believe engaging with the mindset of Right Speech and furthering harmony within this sangha should be a priority for each of us. I should even view this regarding the smart-ass comments I make at times. While meant with humor and with the hopes of making someone smile or relaying a sort of personal affection or camaraderie - who knows what sort of effect this has on new persons looking solice in our midst?
Maybe all of us should review out posts before we place them out here to see if they are truly in keeping with the teachings of Buddha. Or at the very least, maybe I should
You know I wish everyone here the best and much respect...
-bf
I love that, Pally!!! Perfect!
Palzang,
I know what you mean, but I disagree with this statement as it is worded. Now, I wouldn't say you are totally off, it just seems too sweeping of a generalization. Now, this may not have been your intention, but that is how it came accross. Yes there are Dharma thumpers & such. Yes people can be trying to interpret the suttas in a manner which justifies their own point of view. I can personally attest to the fact that this is not always the case. While I'm sure that I do, in fact, do this from time to time, I know that (in general) my intentions are usually not simply to support my own view. I may offer my own view & give my reasons why I take such a view. I may even have to dissect some of the fine points of Buddhist history or terminology in order to demonstrate this. And on some issues, these things can affect how we approach practice. I really don't think that this is making the Buddha into a god & nor do I think this is necessarily enlargening the domain of the ego. Now, I will take what you've expressed as valid dangers of such activities, which we run the risk of falling into. But I'm not going to take what you've expressed as something that is always the case in such matters.
Anyway, I thought I'd post a few snippets on Right Speech that are pertinent to this board & this thread(imo). This is from an Access to Insight article that I've saved as a Word Doc, so I don't have the link right now. I imagine I could dig it up, though, if you would like:
These are all things that are worth reflecting on, in regards to this forum & in regards to all of our interactions. I think that we should try to get as close to these ideals as possible, for a better forum & a better world. Imagine if everyone here followed them all the time & if everyone in the world made a similar effort.
Best wishes & metta
_/\_
Two of the most important supports in our Buddhist practice are mindfulness and admirable friendship.
Mindfulness is our own internal protector. When we cultivate and develop our mindfulness, it enables us to remain focused on our conduct so that we can develop what is skillful and abandon what is not (AN 7.63). As the Buddha advised his son Rahula, whenever you want to perform an action of body, speech, or mind, you should reflect on whether this action you want to do will lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both. And, even after you perform the action, you must be mindful of whether the result of that action lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both. If the action did lead to affliction, if it gave painful results, you should feel distressed and exercise restraint in the future. If the action did not lead to affliction, if it gave pleasant results, you should remain joyful and continue to cultivate positive mental qualities (MN 61). This is done not only to protect ourselves, but also to protect others from our unskillful actions.
Admirable friendship is our external protector. When we surround ourselves with people who are endowed with certain qualities, qualities such as being full of faith, full of virtue, full of charity, and full of wisdom, we surround ourselves with someone that the Buddha declared the whole of the holy life—for through this line of reasoning, it is in dependence on the Buddha as an admirable friend that beings have gained release from birth and death (SN 45.2). Not only do we benefit by associating with good people, but we also benefit by learning from them and emulating their good qualities (AN 8.54). The Buddha did not envision any other single external factor that would do so much for those in training who had yet to attain the goal, but remained intent on practicing (Iti 1.17). In essence, such a friend not only uplifts our spirits when we are in need of encouragement, but they watch out for us when our own internal protector is not as vigilant as we need it to be.
From the beginning of our journey, to the very end, these two supports can help carry you all the way.
Sincerely,
Jason
I like this.
We've had many talks on "mindfulness" - but Admirable Friendship is also a very interesting concept that (as I've stated, I'm not opposed to deeper insight into Buddha's teachings) is something we don't normally run across when just regarding the Four or the Eight.
Thanks for this Elohim. I have a cup of spice coffee waiting for you...
-bf
Ah, how I enjoy the spicy, cinnamonesque aroma of melange. That smell always reminds me of my days on Arrakis, the desert planet. There were many people I considered admirable friends there—Stilgar, Gurney, you my faithful Duncan, and Thufir Hawat... That was, of course, back when I was just an abomination, not the magnificent worm that you see today. You are most welcome my beloved ghola.
Regards,
Leto II
Anyway, I was going to say "Thanks, Jason. May we all be a support to each other on our path towards liberation" in a nice warm & gushy sentimental sort of way, but now I just sort of feel weird.
best wishes & metta
_/\_
Please remember that a sutra or a Dharma talk is not insight in and of itself. It is a means of presenting insight, using words and concepts. When you use a map to get to Paris, once you have arrived, you can put the map away and enjoy being in Paris. If you spend all your time with your map, if you get caught by the words and notions presented by the Buddha, you'll miss the reality. The Buddha said many times, "My teaching is like a finger pointing to the moon. Do not mistake the finger for the moon."
Thich Nhat Hahn, The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching
And yes, the purpose of studying the Dharma is not to give you more ammunition to win arguments with, but to develop compassion and loving kindness for your fellow sentient beings, among whom are the participants in this particular forum. As one of my teachers likes to say, "Nobody ever attained enlightenment by pointing fingers at somebody else!"
Palzang